X/day mechanic; what's the problem? (Mercule, looking your way...)

[Mokona]

I prefer x/day abilities. We should keep them or even see more of them.

X/day is simple and easy to use unlike rolling tons of dice for DC based uses. And if characters don't use up all their x/day abilities because they're "saving" them for a big battle that is just fine if I'm the Dungeon Master. It's more flavorfull that way.

For example, my Paladin's smite evil ability was often wasted because I couldn't hit with it but when we did face the Big Bad Evil Boss the smite evil had an extra aura of heroism.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I don't like the X/day mechanic, especially for natural/extraordinary abilities. It just jars my suspension of disbelief.

There's one basic reason why I'm inherently suspicious of any of the other suggestions put forth so far. Specifically, I hate keeping track of things. X/day is easy enough, but a slowly increasing roll, action points spent on a regular basis, even these tokens, all entail more bookkeeping (even if it's just a little more). And honestly, there are times where I feel there's too much of that already.

Note, I am not saying that such ideas are difficult, or can't be made to work. (And I eagerly await Mike's efforts to prove my concerns unfounded.) I'm just saying that I'm distrustful of the attempts until I see them in execution. The game's already complex enough without adding extra layers, so those layers need to prove to me that they're more fun than what already exists.

I agree that bookkeeping difficulties are problematic. If there was a unified mechanic that put all X/day abilities into one (or perhaps 2 or 3) pools, though, this could simplify bookkeeping significantly -- nevermind that balancing becomes a nightmare....

 

[Enkhidu]

How would you work Action Points with Sudden Metamagic feats?

Maybe you get 3 Sudden Metamagic uses per day, and spending one Action Point can allow one more activation?

 

[Psion]

How would you work Action Points with Sudden Metamagic feats?

With UA style Action Points, which allow you to spontaneously add metamagic without additional cost, I would be tempted to not use spontaneous metamagic feats at all.

Or you could do extra daily uses, just like you do with class daily abilities.

 

[2WS-Steve]

x/day seems rather cut and dried. It's a potential feel/suspension of disbeleif thing... IRL, not too many capabilities work that way.

That said, after I incorporated Action Points from UA (which, by the way Steve, do work this way), all my concerns in this vein vanished. It gave PCs a mechanism to stretch themselves beyond the somewhat arbitrary seeming limit.

Just a note, I was under the impression that Ferret had in mind a system similar to the following:

You receive a number of Endurance points equal to your Constitution. Abilities like Metamagic can be spontaneously applied and use Endurance points equal to the level adjustment of the Metamagic feat. When you've used more than half your Endurance points you are Fatigued. Once you've used all of them you're Exhausted. By then resting for 8 hours you recover your Constitution score in Endurance points -- thus meaning that you might not be fully rested after a hard day.

Other abilities like Rage and Turning would have set costs, perhaps adjusted for level or feats.

*****
Unlike Action points, which recover on level gain, Endurance points recover on something like a daily basis -- and thus somewhat closer to the X/day. Other than the reocvery and side effects they'd charge powers much like Action Points.

One of my desires would be that the potent feats like Maximize or Quicken cost more than the mediocre stuff like doubling range or duration -- currently that's not the case in the Unearthed Arcana implementation of Action Points.

 

[Crothian]

X/day is simple and easy to use unlike rolling tons of dice for DC based uses. And if characters don't use up all their x/day abilities because they're "saving" them for a big battle that is just fine if I'm the Dungeon Master. It's more flavorfull that way.

Tons of dice? It'd be a single die roll like a saving throw, attack roll, skill check, etc. People seem to be able to do those with no problems. And if the person wanted they could save the uses for the big battle. By not using the ability the DC stays low and easy to use so the flavor would be the same in that regards.

 

[Psion]

Tons of dice? It'd be a single die roll like a saving throw, attack roll, skill check, etc. People seem to be able to do those with no problems.

You know, Crothian, I agree it's not tons of rolls. Nonetheless, personally, I'd rather avoid it. Why is the "wiff factor." Some players get intensely annoyed at their luck with dice rolls, and hinging the ability to even use something on a dice roll sounds like it would really spoil the fun of an entirely too large subset of gamers I know IRL.

 

[Enkhidu]

You know, Crothian, I agree it's not tons of rolls. Nonetheless, personally, I'd rather avoid it. Why is the "wiff factor." Some players get intensely annoyed at their luck with dice rolls, and hinging the ability to even use something on a dice roll sounds like it would really spoil the fun of an entirely too large subset of gamers I know IRL.

In theory, I'm one of those gamers - much of the reason I like playing spellcasters is because it allows me to minimize the role of of the die (the die-role, get it? ...OK, so it wasn't funny). But in practice, I've come to accept that the linear probablility inherent in a d20 roll is simply part of the game, and have come to look for other situations where Crothian's idea fits.

I think the key to elimate the "wiff factor" is in setting the DCs and doing so in the proper way - in this case the "success" point is actually the point at which the ability is spent for the day. Let's use any old 3x per day power as an example: the static DC for failure is 26, and the only "bonuses" are a +5 for every use in the day (for the sake of simplicity)

Use 1: Use power, after use roll the check. Die comes up 8 for a total of 13. The power is still usable.
Use 2: Use power, after use roll the check. Die comes up 14 for a total of 24. The power can be used at least one more time.
Use 3: Use power, after use roll the check. Die comes up 10 for a total of 25. That's 3 down and its still cooking.
Use 4: Use power, after use roll the check. Die comes up 6 for a total of 26, and that's the last use of the power in a day.

Not that in this particular case, a character will still get at least 2 uses of the power even under the worst circumstances, and could possible get up to 5. Further, if the power were instead, say 2 times each day, you could simply adjust the downward by 5 (or upward by five if it were 4 times).

Its a realitivly simple thing, and would only add a handful more rolls each session.

 

[A'koss]

Chalk me up as another one who doesn't care for the x/day mechanic. But for our low magic game I reworked a lot of the D20 rules and folded in a new hero/endurance/willpower point system called Resolve.

Resolve points handled a quite a number of D&D issues such as Will Save effects (which now inflict RP damage), energy drain, magic item creation, fear, madness, powering high level spells, metamagic and a number of heroic abilities - such as Rage, our customized Power Attack, bonuses to d20 rolls, etc. If I had the opportunity I would have folded this mechanic even tighter into the game - especially feats and more class abilities. They heal essentially like HPs.

The catch, of course, is you have to be conservative with these points as they are your mental buffer against a wide variety of mind affecting attacks. If you're Resolve is brought to 0, whatever effect brought you there now takes hold. IOG, many scary/powerful creatures can inflict RP damage with their presence and/or attacks. A flesh-mutating squamous icky from the Far Realm for example would inflict "Horror RP" damage in addition to the flesh mutation damage. That sort of thing.

I'd love to see something like this mechanic folded into 4e as it's pretty comprehensive and self-balancing.

Cheers!

A'koss.

 

[Arnwyn]

a lot of people forget to use their x/day abilities.

Something I absolutely do not understand. "Forgetting your abilities" is something completely and utterly alien to me.

That gets a big, giant "WTF?" from me.