X/day mechanic; what's the problem? (Mercule, looking your way...)

[mearls]

That's why I suggested a rising DC. So, to use the ability is a DC 10 with a +5 to the DC for each time it has been used. Sure, it adds luck into the ability but that luck goes botrh ways. The player could potentially use the ability a lot more then usual and would feel good about that luck.

In a way, that might end up with the same result as x/day, where you can rely on using the ability 2 or 3 times, but beyond that the DC gets too high. At that point, you're back in the high DC situation. From a math standpoint, you might as well go back to x/day and drop the die rolls and bookkeeping.

However, this brings up an interesting point. The "feel" of the rules is something that gets overlooked in a design. As Aaron2 pointed out, a lot of people forget to use their x/day abilities. I've seen this happen a lot myself, and some players like the idea of gambling on the ideas. It's definitely something to consider in rules design.

I'm still not sold on it as a good thing for core, defining class abiliites. It adds a random element to the game, one that makes a core, iconic party used to judge CRs and stuff by a little less reliable.

But that all said, I think the basic idea has merit.

Oh yeah, and this is all IMO of course.

 

[Crothian]

In a way, that might end up with the same result as x/day, where you can rely on using the ability 2 or 3 times, but beyond that the DC gets too high. At that point, you're back in the high DC situation. From a math standpoint, you might as well go back to x/day and drop the die rolls and bookkeeping.

I think the book keeping on either would be about equal. You have to keep track of how often you have used both. With the DC, sure one probably gets to count on the ability X/day but stiull has the potential of more. As a player I like that possibility more then the same amount each day.

But I do like the option of having it activitated by action points best out of all three of the solutions.

 

[mearls]

I'm ok with X/day abilities, but I have been thinking of creating something like endurance points, to adjudicate how much stenuous`activity (Raging, knocking down walls, battles etc) you can do before fatigue, exhaustion and so on. I might add in other 1/day abilities, maybe even spells. I don't know how close that idea is to action points, I haven't read that far into AU.

I'm actually working on something very similar right now for a summer release. I've been messing around with the idea of "tokens" that you can sort of redeem for stuff. In D&D 3.5-ese, it would be like a barbarian spending points from his "anger pool" to fuel his rage. He might spend a ton to get a really powerful rage, or a few for a minor rage. You could tie it into Aaron2's idea for a save to resist the effects of leaving a rage - the more points you spend, the higher the DC and the worse the effects.

The rules I've been tinkering with use what I call tokens. You basically earn tokens by doing stuff or fulfilling conditions in a fight, and then you can cash them in to do stuff. There's different types of tokens, and they're tied into feats. A guy with the Dodge tree of feats might earn dodge tokens, the Power Attack feats earn you power tokens, stuff like that.

To go back to D&D 3.5, in order to rage you might have to earn 2 rage tokens by suffering damage, dropping an enemy, using a full-round action to gnaw on your shield, howl like a wolf, and stomp your feat, something like that. The more tokens you earn and spend in an encounter, the better your rage.

I can't really say more, because this stuff isn't even close to playtest, but it's been a lot of fun to work on.

 

[Hunter Simon]

I think it's mostly a flavor objection. The barbarian can fly into a mind-altering rage the first time he runs into an enemy, but several hours later when he sees his real nemesis, he can't (I'm just not that angry ). That can be explained by him being tired, I guess, but what about bard abilities? And if the barbarian is tired, why can he still run for the rest of the day? If he takes some time to rest why can't he rage again?

Because raging is more exhausting than running. Simple.

Personally, I like x/day mechanic for its simplicity. As far as in-game rationale, I chalk it *all* up to fatigue. A spellcaster can't cast more than a certain number of spells per day because going past that number *exhausts* his spirit, *drains* his creativity, whatever. Same with bardic abilities. Same with barbarian rage.

Don't like it? Try GURPS. You'll come *crawling* back to d20.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I'm actually working on something very similar right now for a summer release. I've been messing around with the idea of "tokens" that you can sort of redeem for stuff. In D&D 3.5-ese, it would be like a barbarian spending points from his "anger pool" to fuel his rage. He might spend a ton to get a really powerful rage, or a few for a minor rage. You could tie it into Aaron2's idea for a save to resist the effects of leaving a rage - the more points you spend, the higher the DC and the worse the effects.

The rules I've been tinkering with use what I call tokens. You basically earn tokens by doing stuff or fulfilling conditions in a fight, and then you can cash them in to do stuff. There's different types of tokens, and they're tied into feats. A guy with the Dodge tree of feats might earn dodge tokens, the Power Attack feats earn you power tokens, stuff like that.

To go back to D&D 3.5, in order to rage you might have to earn 2 rage tokens by suffering damage, dropping an enemy, using a full-round action to gnaw on your shield, howl like a wolf, and stomp your feat, something like that. The more tokens you earn and spend in an encounter, the better your rage.

I can't really say more, because this stuff isn't even close to playtest, but it's been a lot of fun to work on.

Oh. My. God.

A functional, flexible, d20 Limit Break/Overdrive system.

I can honestly say I haven't anticipated an RPG product this much since... heck, maybe ever.

I don't suppose that's open beta? Eh? Eh?

 

[TerraDave]

Mearls,

An "extra layer of resource managment" may not be everybodies idea of fun! But I saw your point.

Still, from the posts an alternate is developing. Con or Fort check for rage, Cha or Wis check for lay on hands, perform check for bardic abilities BUT you can use these automatically with action points or something similar. Oh, and there does have to be some cost--lost move or standard action--for failing one of these checks.

 

[swrushing]

I am NOT one against the notion of per day limitations... but...

I do not find it preferrable because it is a not entirely but mostly meaningless figure.

Depending on the pacing of the game, the style of the game, "per day" can be "critically harsh" or "amazingly lax".

In the "get things going" or "info gathering" part of s story, multiple days may pass rather uneventfully and during those periods a "per day" is rather pointless, or maybe very indistinguishable from "per hour". On the other hands, at the dramatic finale part of the story, a whole lot may happen all at once making "per day" really noticed and not at all like "per hour".

Basically, time passage "on stage" is highly subjective, even within a single game, much less between different campaigns. this tends to make "per time on stage or off" counting rather odd. They don't really cover "use in play" as much as they may seem. One could potentially use a once per day thing four or five or a dozen times in a single gaming session or at another time only be allowed once in several sessions.

On the other hand, some games use time frames like "once per scene/encounter" or even better "once per gaming session" to cover limitations and make them more "constant." Frankly, i gotta say about the only meaningful time grades i try to focus on are "combat round", scene, and session.

 

[Psion]

x/day seems rather cut and dried. It's a potential feel/suspension of disbeleif thing... IRL, not too many capabilities work that way.

That said, after I incorporated Action Points from UA (which, by the way Steve, do work this way), all my concerns in this vein vanished. It gave PCs a mechanism to stretch themselves beyond the somewhat arbitrary seeming limit.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Mike, I really hope you can get your "token system" to work. I'd love to see how it plays.

That said...

There's one basic reason why I'm inherently suspicious of any of the other suggestions put forth so far. Specifically, I hate keeping track of things. X/day is easy enough, but a slowly increasing roll, action points spent on a regular basis, even these tokens, all entail more bookkeeping (even if it's just a little more). And honestly, there are times where I feel there's too much of that already.

Note, I am not saying that such ideas are difficult, or can't be made to work. (And I eagerly await Mike's efforts to prove my concerns unfounded.) I'm just saying that I'm distrustful of the attempts until I see them in execution. The game's already complex enough without adding extra layers, so those layers need to prove to me that they're more fun than what already exists.

It's for this reason that I won't touch the "spell recharge time" option rules in UA with a 10-foot (2-square) pole.

 

[JoeGKushner]

x/day seems rather cut and dried. It's a potential feel/suspension of disbeleif thing... IRL, not too many capabilities work that way.

That said, after I incorporated Action Points from UA (which, by the way Steve, do work this way), all my concerns in this vein vanished. It gave PCs a mechanism to stretch themselves beyond the somewhat arbitrary seeming limit.

How would you work Action Points with Sudden Metamagic feats?