+x ECL races and lack of HP, is there anyway to balance this?
- Thread starter Allanon
- Start date
ruleslawyer
Registered User
Allanon: Note the general point that seems to be coming across in these responses: The best solution to the problem of "paper tiger" +LA, low-hp PCs is to prohibit anyone from playing a race with an LA greater than one-half their level (or, conversely, fewer than half their ECL in HD). This usually does solve the problem; for instance, a half-celestial's increased mobility, stats, and immunities do a great job of balancing a 4th-level half-celestial PC against an 8th-level standard race PC, despite the fewer hit points. It just doesn't work so well for the half-celestial when he's 1st level and everyone else is 5th.
Haffrung Helleyes
First Post
obvious fix
Rather than coming up with an ECL system that's unplayable at all but high levels, the obvious fix is for +ECL creatures to actually get levels in an intentionally weak progression.
You could just say that a +ECL 2 creature had to have two levels of 'Commoner', rather than two levels of 'nothing'. Or you could make up your own chart:
'ECL level'
d4hp
2 skill points/lvl
all bad saves
NO bab increase
NO spell progression
NO feats or other special abilities
So a PC mindflayer (ECL +8, right?) would have 8 levels of this in addition to his Mind Flayer levels.
This would fix the problem of utter lack of hit points at low levels (for races with a decent CON). Some of the really high CON races might need rebalancing (since 1d4hp isn't so bad when a +8 CON bonus comes with it) but IMO even these races would probably be more balanced than they are now, because their ECLs tend to be very high.
I'm rather surprised that no one at WOTC has proposed this.
Ken McKinney
Rather than coming up with an ECL system that's unplayable at all but high levels, the obvious fix is for +ECL creatures to actually get levels in an intentionally weak progression.
You could just say that a +ECL 2 creature had to have two levels of 'Commoner', rather than two levels of 'nothing'. Or you could make up your own chart:
'ECL level'
d4hp
2 skill points/lvl
all bad saves
NO bab increase
NO spell progression
NO feats or other special abilities
So a PC mindflayer (ECL +8, right?) would have 8 levels of this in addition to his Mind Flayer levels.
This would fix the problem of utter lack of hit points at low levels (for races with a decent CON). Some of the really high CON races might need rebalancing (since 1d4hp isn't so bad when a +8 CON bonus comes with it) but IMO even these races would probably be more balanced than they are now, because their ECLs tend to be very high.
I'm rather surprised that no one at WOTC has proposed this.
Ken McKinney
I suggested something similar in the past, but the general consensus then was to merely reduce the LA slightly instead of this. It really does depend on the creature though, some powers just arent appropriate early on, but that doesnt mean that they are worth the LA that they are given.
A scaling system of LA would be better in some ways and worse in others, but it does fix at least part of it. A combination of several things will probably have to be made at some point, the current system just isnt useful in many cases.
A scaling system of LA would be better in some ways and worse in others, but it does fix at least part of it. A combination of several things will probably have to be made at some point, the current system just isnt useful in many cases.
A better system would have been to pair "Minimum Level" and "XP Penalty" values for each race. So, for example, you might say "Minimum Level 2" for the Drow, and assess a 20% XP penalty; thus, a Drow would not be playable in a game of lower than second level, and the Drow would suffer a penalty of 20% on all XP (including the starting amount). So, if you start a gamewith, say, 1,500XP and 1,250GP (a bit of the way to level 3), a Drow would have 1,200XP and 1,250GP ... still second level, but a bit behind the other players, and under a penalty to earned XP. Thus, the Drow will level slower than the other characters ... probably hitting 4th level about when the rest of the party hits 5th. Eventually, their lower individual ECL will garner them higher XP awards, to the point of roughly balancing out ... so once they fall a level or two behind, they would probably not lose any further ground in relation to the rest of the party.
OTOH, a Mind Flayer might be "minimum level 10, XP penalty 30%" ... as a sort of pick numbers out of thin air sort of example.
Some races might have a high minimum level, and little or NO XP penalty.
A few (like the poor, best-upon Kobold) might have an XP bonus ... say, 10% (which, again, would eventually level out, once the kobold got a certain number of levels - probably one, maybe two - ahead of the party).
Unfortunately, I for one am not up for crafting a system like that, which can be quantifiably applied to the races and monsters already presented within the panoply of WOTC rules (let alone those from Third-Party products)..
OTOH, a Mind Flayer might be "minimum level 10, XP penalty 30%" ... as a sort of pick numbers out of thin air sort of example.
Some races might have a high minimum level, and little or NO XP penalty.
A few (like the poor, best-upon Kobold) might have an XP bonus ... say, 10% (which, again, would eventually level out, once the kobold got a certain number of levels - probably one, maybe two - ahead of the party).
Unfortunately, I for one am not up for crafting a system like that, which can be quantifiably applied to the races and monsters already presented within the panoply of WOTC rules (let alone those from Third-Party products)..
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reiella
Explorer
One possibility you may consider if it is really troubling, is give them some temporary hitdice to even out the playing field while they're dealing with the rough levels (Enough to shuffle them up to at least half their level is in HD), but have the 'freebie' HD disappear as they advance in class levels that give HD.
Yep, kludge, and pretty unfair (so make them mediocre d4 or d6 hitdie) just to help the characters survive past their weak points.
Or better yet, just have them adventure in Ysgard until they get past it
.
Dying? Pshaw. Next day I'm all better.
Yep, kludge, and pretty unfair (so make them mediocre d4 or d6 hitdie) just to help the characters survive past their weak points.
Or better yet, just have them adventure in Ysgard until they get past it
.Dying? Pshaw. Next day I'm all better.
I think it's up to you, the DM, to modify the encounters accordingly. You now know that they have a hard time with straight up combat encounters because they can't take the damage.
Rather than come up with a house rule, simply adjust the encounters down a bit. Give them weaker monsters to fight. Also do not put them up against behemoth melee monsters that do vast amounts of hit point damage per round.
I disagree with giving them more hit points. They all chose to play +ECL races, so they can't have their cake and eat it too. They must deal with the low number of hit points in exchange for the extra powers that they get because of their race.
Otherwise, you're kind of screwing with the non-ECL folk. If I can play a rakshasa with full hit points, why play one of the non-ECL races?
Okay, my wife just suggested to me one option. Redistribute the hit dice on the level advancement chart to give them more hit dice in the beginning of their progression, but then taper it off at higher levels.
Rather than come up with a house rule, simply adjust the encounters down a bit. Give them weaker monsters to fight. Also do not put them up against behemoth melee monsters that do vast amounts of hit point damage per round.
I disagree with giving them more hit points. They all chose to play +ECL races, so they can't have their cake and eat it too. They must deal with the low number of hit points in exchange for the extra powers that they get because of their race.
Otherwise, you're kind of screwing with the non-ECL folk. If I can play a rakshasa with full hit points, why play one of the non-ECL races?
Okay, my wife just suggested to me one option. Redistribute the hit dice on the level advancement chart to give them more hit dice in the beginning of their progression, but then taper it off at higher levels.
