XP Cost to use a Magical Item

[Pyrex]

There are some definate ways this could work, but you have to balance the xp cost with the effect.

Ex1:
Wizard crafts a Scroll of Limited Wish, but instead of investing the 300xp during creation, makes it such that whomever uses the scroll pays the 300xp.
-Seems balanced

From there it's not a large stretch to an item that casts Limited Wish x times per day/week/whatever but requires the person using it to spend 300xp.
-Still seems balanced

You could even have more wacky (if dangerous and potentially unbalancing) effects.

Accurate Sword
An 'Accurate Sword' never misses it's target. If an attack roll would result in a miss, the wielder immediately gains a competence bonus to attack sufficient to allow the attack to succeed by expending 20xbonus XP.

 

[Hjorimir]

Down below (near the bottom) you will see how I handle ths with Attunement. Reposted from my story hour...

All the player characters are human and that is by my design. Most humans don't even believe in the existence of elves and dwarves (and have no concept of other typical player races). Orcs, however, are obviously a reality and a major source of concern.

Magic...that's a big question. Okay, I will try and elucidate how I think of magic within my campaign. As far as spellcasters go, demographically speaking, there are far fewer than what is probably typical for a D&D world. Wizards, for example, cannot just go to a major city to track down the local wizard and purchase scrolls. Other than the spells allocated to them upon gaining a new level (two) they are pretty much forced to research each spell individually.

The theory is that they will research variations of the spells within the books or (even better) create original works that help define their characters within the world. As they are still young, they haven't actually had the opportunity to start any research. But I know it is coming and it should be interesting to see what they produce.

I should mention that I utilize the optional spell-point system within Unearthed Arcana for all of the spell casters (except Sorcerers which do something else).

Divine casters (clerics/druids for the most part) are required to keep a prayer book that contains the litanies (read: cleric spells) and rites (read: druid spells) they have access to. When a cleric or druid obtains a new level, he may add two spells of his choice into his prayer book (much like a wizards). If it was a new spell level as well the cleric also adds his domain spells or, in the case of the druid, adds the appropriate Summon Nature’s Ally spell. Scribing costs are identical to what a wizard pays and they utilize either Knowledge: Religion or Knowledge: Nature in lieu of Spellcraft in order to determine ability to learn a new litany/rite.

This was a design decision based on two factors: That divine casters are extremely powerful as presented within the rules and that I didn’t like the fact that (other than domain access) all of the divine casters had the exact same spell lists taking away any unique characteristics.

Much like in Sepulchrave’s (man, that guy is awesome) Wyre campaign, the vast majority of the clergy are experts; meaning they don’t actually have any ability to channel Æhü’s (God’s) power.

In the case of magic items, there isn’t one among the group. I prefer to have fewer magic items than what most games have (where players work diligently to fit all of the items onto their ‘paper-doll’ while making sure no slot is left unadorned). Instead, I create items of power that have stronger abilities, often function differently than what is presented in the DMG, and have colorful histories.

This wraps into another house rule. I am of the opinion (and most of the DMs in our group agree) that traditional 3E experience advancement is too quick. Characters tend to race so fast through the levels that they have a hard time really understanding all of their own abilities. So, one way I slow the level advancement is through attunement costs.

Attunement is an experience cost to connect with a magic item. Once the experience is spent, it is lost forever to the character (even if the item is later destroyed, sold, lost, etc.). A character can also sever an attunement as a way of separation. The reason they would do this is because they cannot have more attuned at any one time than what is appropriate for their character level (as presented in the DMG). This is nice because it polices itself for character balance. It also forces the players to make a conscious choice on what items they actually use. Attunement to scrolls and potions are made at time of use (so you can administer a potion of healing to a dying character who would be able to attune automatically and gain the benefits of the curative magic).

Another nice benefit is that you can have powerful items without it being ‘Monty Haul.’ For example, the value of a +5 sword is 50,000 gp which far too much for a 4th-level character to possess (5,400 to be precise). So a 4th-level character that somehow came to possess such a powerful weapon wouldn’t be able to attune it past a +1 sword (as +2 is 8,000 and far too expensive). This allows you to have items that grow with the character and take on a campaign history.

Magic item creation is another beast as well. Days become weeks when determining development time (save potions and scrolls). Furthermore, recipes need to be found or researched for items they are trying to craft. Often, the recipe will require rare and exotic components that forces a character to seek them out (read: adventure hook). It should be noted that the experience spent in creating an item can be levied against any attunement costs if the character is making an item for himself.

Lastly, there are materials within the world that are infused or ‘naturally magical’ that are used to craft (for the most part) arms and armor. These must still be attuned but you won’t need any of those rare spell casters to create the item (just the appropriate craftsmen).

 

[milotha]

I agree with with Thornir. I think that having an xp cost to magic item use is a bad and unbalancing idea.

It sounds as if you are going to apply this to penalize the characters for using the items that you have given them or that they have already spent their hard earned xp and cash to create. This sounds incredibly frustrating to me.

Spell casters:
In 3.5, they have seriously toned down the power of many of the wizard's spells. The magic item creation feats were given to mages in order to balance them out. It gives them something nice to do for the party and themselves at the expense of gold and xp. If you make these magic items less useful by having an xp/use cost then you are further nerfing the mages. Furthermore, mages and clerics are far more likely to be the ones using magic items (scrolls wands, staves, rods, certain misc magic are specific to spell casters) , since their classes are more dependant upon magic items in combat. So, this once again penalizes the spell casters. For example: you make a scroll which costs you xp, and then you spend more xp to use it?

Non casters:
Are you going to make magic swords and magic armour have an xp cost? Everytime the fighter swings his +1 sword, there goes some xp! Oh, wait Bob, you've been wearing that +1 armour for 2 hours, you've lost 120 xp and are now a level lower.

This sounds like a nightmare in book keeping to boot.

Furthermore, if you are at all worried about meta game tactics, this has so much potential for abuse, I can't even begin to say what estute players would do with this. Let's knock out this BBEG, put him in a suit of armour, and keep him knocked out for hours. He'll be first level at the end of it. Didn't like how you rolled for your hp, and you just crossed over the line, we'll lets put on this ring for a few minutes and presto, instant level drain. Next, let's cast Nystal's Undectable Aura on this continuous effect magic item and hand it off to NPC/PC X as if it weren't magical. Oh look, why are they losing xp. Oh no, Bob's picked up a continuos effect artifact. He didn't realize it was an artifact and now he's two levels lower.

And lastly, do you really want to spend time in the game having the PCs spend forever deciding if using magic item X is worth the xp loss!? Is everyone going to know how much xp loss things will cost before using them. Sorry Bob, you used the unknown artifact and it drained 5,000 xp/use. How are you going to balance this? Since NPCs are throw away, aren't you really penalizing the PCs more?

 

[Beholder Bob]

Jeez, some people take the exp idea rather hard!

Rather then making all items cost exp, it would make for a nice change of pace. You could even make it a style of an old civilization or odd culture. Imagine wands that drain the user 10*(Caster LV) exp each time they are fired - but do not run out of charges. Perhaps cap it at 5 or 10 uses a day. I'd give a good discount for making items that cost exp, and of course still allow items that do not use exp be made. The exp cost would only be for activated abilities, not continuos ones (so, no, +1 armor has no cost, but activating the ring of shield spell does...), and would be included with the standard action to activate the ability. Perhaps a 10-20% discount on the cost to make such an item - both in cash and exp.

Certainly would not allow the item to drop you in level - and for those with the minimum exp, allow them to earn an exp deficit to pay off - but with a 20% penalty for 'early withdrawal' (why would they be able to use a rod for all of 3rd level, then not be able to use it the day he reaches 4th level?)

Also - what about a standard item - but with exp burn to boost it? A wand of magic missiles - but for 10*(Caster LV) exp and 2 extra charges, it is maximized that round?

Perhaps even make items that grow with the user - say a cloak of invisibility that costs 50 exp to use, but once the owner has put in 1000 exp, it now works for 'free'. Perhaps it then gains the ability to cast improved invisibility, but for 500 exp.... Basic idea is giving out items that grow with the user IF used, not simply improving because the owner went up a level.

As to 'screwing over the players'... Go home and cry to momma! (Ash)

If the DM calculates items such as these as being worth less because of the exp cost - that implies more treasure is going to be given out. If the DM doesn't do it, if the cold hard world of DND is getting you down - Good for the DM! I give my players 1/2 exp and 1/2 treasure! I grew up with 1st edition, I had to go uphill both ways walking in the snow to get our exp, our 1st level characters died every other game - and we liked it! Our wizard got 1 spell with no specialization or INT bonuses, we rolled 3 dice to... to... Oh hell. Never mind.

BB

 

[Caliber]

An alternative, if anyone loathes obscenely the thought of yet another way to spend hard-earned XP, have the character be required to sacrifice a spell slot of the appropriate level to use the enhancement(eg. In order to Exend the effects of Boots of Flying might cost a 4th level spell slot and the wearer must have Extend Spell)..

Heh. My players LOATHE spending XP on anything. Not once has one ever even CONSIDERED taking a magic item creation feat. Bunch of greedy munchkins!

The above quote reflects a similar system which I plan on implementing in my next campaign, and which I originally got from these boards.

Imagine teleportation spires that can teleport you to any other spire in a certain radius, that require a 3rd level spell to be sacrificed to use. Message stones that allow you to use a sending to anyone with a similar stone at the cost of a 1st level slot. Its a pretty ingenious system. I wish I remembered who first gave it to me tohugh. :\

 

[Crimsonite]

Eh, I'm kind of torn on this.

On one hand this is a brilliant way to give high level items to low level characters in a last ditch effort to save themselves and the party.
It's like giving a rogue a ring of teleport without error that drains # exp but has unlimited charges. The # should rise according to the level so it still stings at higher levels. But in the end it'd sting a lot less than dying.

As in: activate something special and powerful with a sacrafice.


I'm against the attunement dealie though. I mean .. great, you get a powerful sword but you can only get it to +# due to your level AND you have to pay in XP for this sword. And once you level up high enough to add another plus you are hit with an exp penalty again if you want to use it.

And suddenly someone steals the sword or it's broken or god knows what. Then you have to hand over mad cash again to get a comparable weapon and give up even more exp to get back to where you were. Ow. That just hurts.

However: If the attunement system worked so that you can basically buy ABILITIES with the exp, that'd be nice. For example: You are a fighter, you like swords (surprisingly enough) and you plan on using them for a long time, even the magical ones.
So you attune exp to learn how to use +1 broadswords (for example) and then you attune again to use +1 platemails. Etc. But once you have attuned you can use any broadsword up to +1 unless it's magically enhanced to not allow you to weild it (alignment restrictions, race restrictions, etc). Regardless who's sword that is.
Think of it as training your body and soul magically to be able to weild that type of weapon.

That'd also make for fun scenes where a character tries to use a weapon they're not attune-trained with. The effects could range from reduced attack rating, status ailments and random magical effects to explosions, fire and being dominated by the weapon, doing its bidding.

 

[Caliber]

In a game that I particularly like, Earthdawn, to use magic items you had to attune with them. In Earthdawn I'm pretty sure you spent the XP equivalent to attune to magical items, but that wasn't it.

In Earthdawn, all magical items were special. So to get to the first tier of power, you might have to simply find out the items name and pay the XP cost. Then you might have to find out who last owned it. And what they used it for. And who made it. And so on, so forth, for each sucessive tier of power.

Earthdawn also had a really cool system where you could attune yourself to other people, for example the Wizard could attune to the big brute's strength, gaining his strength. Or a group of heroes could attune themselves to each other, creating a hero pact (or whatever they called it)

God I miss that system. I think I'm going to have to go dust off my old copies now.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Beholder Bob's idea is good. Keep the magic items standard, but allow XP expenditure to boost it - or maybe to substitute for using a charge.
Not sure how many charges are left in that Staff of Life? Maybe getting near the 5-charge cost for raise dead? Well, you can choose to spend 60 XP to toss out a Heal if the fighter absolutely positively needs one. The PC can choose to conserve charges by spending life energy (and the difference between winning a fight and losing a fight is going to make up the XP lost). Similarly, for items with limited uses per day - already used up the allotment? Spend some XP to push the item and get an extra use.
It's simply a way of providing more options to the players for use in dire straits - which I can't see any player disagreeing with.

 

[WaterRabbit]

I also disagree with this idea. D&D is not really designed to use XP as an expendable resource (despite its use in item creation – something I don’t believe the designers really thought through). Other games like Storyteller, Shadowrun/Earthdawn, and GURPS are built to use XP as an expendable resource.

In the D&D paradigm, spending XP (or even level loss) is always used in the context of a penalty. Unearthed Arcana gives an option for using Action Points as a character expendable resource. I would much rather play in (or run for that matter) a game that introduced this concept and then allowed a character to tap greater powers from a magic items by spending APs.

This wraps into another house rule. I am of the opinion (and most of the DMs in our group agree) that traditional 3E experience advancement is too quick. Characters tend to race so fast through the levels that they have a hard time really understanding all of their own abilities. So, one way I slow the level advancement is through attunement costs.

This seems like a crude tool for the goal you are trying to achieve.

Traditional 3E has certain assumptions built into advancement. If you feel advancement occurs too quickly, the DMG offers many variants to slow advancement – especially useful if your group does not fit the standard 3E assumptions about how often groups meet, campaigns last, and session lengths.

Finally, I would like to offer this: In my experience, it is to them DM’s advantage to have his characters advanced at the same pace. It is much easier to plan encounters. It is also less disruptive to gamming sessions when everyone levels their characters at the same time.

 

[random user]

Hrm perhaps I misunderstood, I thought the idea was to create new magic items that would have an xp cost to them, not that one would change current items to use xp.

I'm against changing it so that all magic items requre an xp cost, but I certainly wouldn't be against creating new magic items (properly balanced) that had an xp cost, as long as the user of the item knows that there is going to be an xp penalty.

Asuming you play with some sort of xp award for overcoming challenges, a situation that is unwinnable (and thus earn no xp) could be turned into a situation where you still gain xp. So if you look at it that way, you are still gaining xp, and furthermore, gaining more than if you didn't have the item.

Of course, I think the items would have to be pretty special, not your run of the mill +1 sword (I would be against xp drain for continuous effect items anyways) or wand of cure light wounds.

If nothing else I look at it this way. Having more choices is good (as long as it's balanced). Nothing is forcing the players to use these items. And personally one aspect that I dislike from some (note: not all!) campaigns is that there are rarely tradeoffs. You either win or you die. Having an option be a shade of grey (Hrm I could use this item and take an xp loss out of it, but I might be able to save a town, gain an ally out of it etc. Is it worth it?) is refreshing.

But again, I would be against making all items require an xp cost (that isn't adding more choice, that's just changing a rule of the game), and if that was the original question, then please disregard my post on the first page of this thread.