[XPH] Psion versus Wizard/Sorcerer

[Thanee]

Sure the Sorcerers Fireball still does 10d6, but it only costs him a 3rd level spell slot. For the Psion to scale the Energy Ball up to 15d5 it would cost 15 power points, the equal to an 8th level spell slot. For just a 5th level spell slot the Sorcerer could have empowered their Fireball doing effectively 15d6 damage for 3 spell levels less.

With a +5 DC and several other benefits as well.

And seriously who casts empowered fireballs at level 15 still? You need bigger guns at that level!

Psions NEED all the extra power points just to keep their lower level powers competitive. They really need to augument their lower level powers to make them stay useful.

Yep. Won't argue that point.

Where sorcerers and wizards really seem to win is in scalable buffing spells. A 16th level wizard can use a 3rd level spell to give a companion a +4 weapon for 16 hours. The psion can't make a +4 weapon till 17th level and it takes them 17 power points to do the same thing as a wizards 3rd level spell. I think once people have taken the psion out for a spin it will show that they are very versitle but really don't pack more of a punch than a wizard.

The problem I see here is, that psions will simply stay away from those spells that are clearly inferior (or much more expensive to be competitive) and focus on their strengths. So the weaknesses do not balance out the strengths, since they won't show up that much.

And really can you honestly tell me, that a psion is not completely superior to a sorcerer?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Darklone]

I didn't read everything yet, but do you think the (as far as I read) huge amount of powers that are "free" or immediate actions by themselves will skew the balance even further?

IMHO the psionic feats are much better than all the metamagic ones.

 

[reiella]

* Bonus Feats, as wizard.

Not sure on that.

Their 1st level bonus feat replaces the "familiar".
But do the psions get a encode stone at first automatically as well (ie, Scribe Scroll)?

For the augmenting powers/etc you have to remember the psionics pp cap... The given example of the energy ball is only possible at 15th level (and you made quite a good point, who would be still using that at 15th, you need bigger guns . [ Of course you can overchannel, which risks damage, and requires feats to 'perform safely. ]

And wouldn't surprise me at all if Psions are > Wizards. 343 power points at 20 (which does come out roughly to be the amount of power points needed to manifest each of their powers known at max augmentation 1/day I believe).

[ Add ]
I'd be interested in comparing against the Cleric, because it may balanced against that general 'power level'.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

One balancing factor is that metapsionic feats require you to expend your focus, so you'll most likely only have the chance to use them once per combat.

Browsing through the item section... Psionatrices (+1 DC items for 8k are a joke in the DC bonus free 3.5 environment)

Remember that psions don't get the same benefit from Spell Focus that wizards can. Like the metapsionic feats, Psionic Endowment requires you to expend your focus to raise the DC by 1.

 

[Thanee]

Their 1st level bonus feat replaces the "familiar".
But do the psions get a encode stone at first automatically as well (ie, Scribe Scroll)?

They get the same bonus feats, just no Scribe Scroll.

For the augmenting powers/etc you have to remember the psionics pp cap... The given example of the energy ball is only possible at 15th level (and you made quite a good point, who would be still using that at 15th, you need bigger guns .

The augmented energy ball is an 8th level power!
The empowered fireball is well... an empowered 3rd level spell.

And wouldn't surprise me at all if Psions are > Wizards. 343 power points at 20 (which does come out roughly to be the amount of power points needed to manifest each of their powers known at max augmentation 1/day I believe).

And that's just base PP, right?

If you add resonable PP bonus from stat (90 for Int 28 IIRC) and just divide by 16 (cost of a 9th level power by that level) you get 27!! That's 27 9th level manifestations per day (at the expense of lower level stuff, of course - they can swap out a few of those 9th level for plenty lower ones).

Wizards get... uhm... let's say 6 9th plus 6 8th plus 6 7th plus 6 6th... that's still not that many and a lot less powerful as well!

Bye
Thanee

 

[questionmark]

This makes me really nervous, because our resident munchkin just bought the psionic book. I had thought that they would have fixed the balance issues for 3.5 and told him he could use it in our new campaign. Did i just shoot myself in the foot

 

[Thanee]

Remember that psions don't get the same benefit from Spell Focus that wizards can. Like the metapsionic feats, Psionic Endowment requires you to expend your focus to raise the DC by 1.

Ok, that would make the Psionatrices fair at least, I guess.

Bye
Thanee

 

[reiella]

They get the same bonus feats, just no Scribe Scroll.

The augmented energy ball is an 8th level power!
The empowered fireball is well... an empowered 3rd level spell.

And that's just base PP, right?

If you add resonable PP bonus from stat (90 for Int 28 IIRC) and just divide by 16 (cost of a 9th level power by that level) you get 27!! That's 27 9th level manifestations per day (at the expense of lower level stuff, of course - they can swap out a few of those 9th level for plenty lower ones).

Wizards get... uhm... let's say 6 9th plus 6 8th plus 6 7th plus 6 6th... that's still not that many and a lot less powerful as well!

Bye
Thanee

The DC scaling part is .. a bit awkward, however, as mentioned, it is not an 8th level power (for "attack purposes" it may well be), and would get splattered by Globes in the default setting as was mentioned earlier. Makes it awkward (and I kinda wish there were scaling caps ... like wizards/sorcs have).

Add in PP bonus from stats (Int Mod 9, Manifester Level 20 ~= 90). Divide by 17 (adding items to balance equation for a class is a bad idea, for a reason I'll say later ). Would it be fair to compare against a wizard specialist? Given that the psion is a "forced specialist" [consider, psions simply have a larger universal school, but must give up 5 other schools in order to specialize].

Wizard @ 20 + 28 Int:
Lvl 20 : 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4
+Int : 0/3/2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1
+Spec: 1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1
Total : 5/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6

So about 24 powers > 6th, and against a psion plopping for what amounts to a 17th level effective caster level [17 PP/power] comes out to roughly 25 (and a half!) powers [ Note: this puts the damage output for powers the psion manifests at 17d6 usually. The situation gets muddied a bit more when you consider @ 20th due to potential DC hikes to 'save as if it were a 10th level power' ]. Further, the Wizard in question at this point, has at least a spell that will always outdamage the psion(whose not overchanneling) [Meteor Swarm damage can only be achieved at 24th, and then I'm not sure which of the power chains is No Save + No Roll to Hit]. So in effect, I'd contend that the difference is 1 [or 3 with the Torc] and generally dealing more damage. However, the psions would be "harder to resist".

If you shuffle it to ML 20. It's 22 [or 23 with torc] in order to deal the equivilant 20d6 of damage. However, then you have the headache of dealing with possible 10th level effective power stuffies.

Consider the effects a Ring of Wizardry II might have for a Wizard. For the purposes of determining "effective higher level attacks", it's a bit worthless, but I hardly think that it's a fair assessment to give to the ring either. In a pure power point comparison, the Wizard ends up a bit 'better off' than the Psion, and the Torc shows it's best benefit now in 'Suped Up Powers' but multitudes of small power usages. While I may concede that the torc is 'too good of an item', it also comes only in the amulet slot now (a Good Thing). Which means it's competing with the Psionatrix, the Amulet of Health, Amulet of Natural Armor, and Peripat of Wisdom [ie, I don't see a Psy Warrior using it, unless it's meshed into another item]. I have a hard time seeing a Psion not using it though. More or less, the Torc is too much of a headache to determine the optimal application .

Oh another comment about the psionatrixes. look at Psionic Endowment before getting "too grumbly" at them. The psionatrixes seem more akin to the 3.5 spell focus than the psionic endowment feat :x.

Anycase, I think the Power Point Issue isn't too unbalanced at the Top of the scale (ie, upper level spells versus manifested powers). The problem, if any, would occur when you start looking at powers that don't need to be augmented or used at "best" in order to be effective. The psion also doesn't "need" metapsi as much as the wizard may need metamagic; but then again the wizard is alot better at item crafting than the psion .

 

[Thanee]

Yeah, the psionatrices are probably a fair deal, didn't realize they don't have an equivalent Spell Focus feat. Said so above already.

About the power issues, I wonder how you can even argue that point.

And one thing about the amulet slot... yes, that's a disadvantage until everyone starts to get those items for different slots.

Bye
Thanee

 

[reiella]

Yeah, the psionatrices are probably a fair deal, didn't realize they don't have an equivalent Spell Focus feat. Said so above already.

About the power issues, I wonder how you can even argue that point.

And one thing about the amulet slot... yes, that's a disadvantage until everyone starts to get those items for different slots.

Bye
Thanee

Hehe, simply as, for a 20th level psion to get a 20th level manifester level, they only get 22 or 23 of those powers / day then [23 with torc, 22 without], versus the 24 from your example wizard; and still end up behind on some of the damage. As from 6th level on, there are damage spells that can reach at least 20d6, and one that hits 32d6 (24 fire, 8 bludgeon), while the psion is stuck with "at best" 20d6 damage wise. So pretty much, because Meteor Swarm rocks .