Yes, I'm still confused by Oriental Adventures

[Gold Rush Games]

If you looked at my posting, I was willing to help out 100% to get great material out in the market and to help get books that I really think need to be done.

I never read that. I read your posts preaching the greatness of d20, but I saw no offers to do actual writing for us. Maybe I missed it. If so, I'm sorry that I did.

Unfortunately, I'm REALLY sour on you, personally, Mark. I still would love to push Sengoku D20, but unprofessional behavior on your Sengoku list and accusations of spamming from my business that will hurt such a small business as me has really put me off Gold Rush Games.

Unprofessional behavior? Really? Wow. The standards have sure changed since I started in the business. Where're Gareth Skarka or james Wallis when I need them?

I think you should try to take a step back and re-evaluate things a bit. I think you'll find that I didn't (and am not) acting unprofessionally, nor did I accuse you of spamming.

It seems as though you got irritated by something that someone else said and are turning it into some sort of personal issue with me, which is extremely misplaced.

I hope your business prospers and that you find some peace. We need more happy and successful retailers.

 

[d20books]

d20books (or anyone else, I'm not picky), what specific features would you like to see in your ideal Asian Adventures book? Were there features of OA that you liked? What specifically did you like about Nyambe, and how would you like to see it in an Asian book? What would you like to see left out that was included in either OA or Nyambe? (and don't say Rokugan, 'cause when anyone says Rokugan, all I hear is "campaign-specific material" or "campaign-setting material")

Cheers
Nell.

First off, the big irritance was with the way Oriental Adventures did the armor and equipment. If you look at all the armor bits and pieces, there is no such thing as a single "Great Armor". In Japanese amrors, you have several types of torso armor, arm, head, thigh and leg armors (all of which many people have written wonderful books on) that is really pieced together. The original Oriental Adventures 1st Edition for AD&D actually attempted at simplifying and did a decent job of it. Any unifying "Great Armor" is simply matched sets of the various armors colored and styled the same.

On the Chinese side, there was a total neglect of focus on their armors. No focus on other Asian cultures like Southeast Asia, Mongolia, India, or the far interior China.

As for feats, there is a ton of material that could be added here. There were all the Rokugan Ancestral feats, but they really neglected the various natures of Asian cultures as their outlook on the dead. Curiously, the Asian and Latino cultures are very similar as they deal with family ghosts and how they walk the earth and live within the same plane of existance as the living.

It would also be interesting to get a feel for the various Martial Arts. I know you could do a complete D20 book on Martial Arts (and there are a few, actually) but they could be used as feats. A specific feat for Kenjiutsu to add a bonus to the use of the Gatana for example. Many of the Asian Martial arts have some focus on particular weapons. Some of the "farmer" martial arts focus specifically on making anything a weapon.

Lastly, there are many cultural inputs that would need to be added to a book so that Westerners can figure out the mind-set. Being raised in an Asia-centric family has given me an inherent ability to move in Asian cultures fairly well, but I could never explain exactly why things are done the way they are. They simply ARE. It is hard to explain this to Westerners, but it would be a good first step for DMs and Players to figure it out.

 

[d20books]

Lastly, there are many cultural inputs that would need to be added to a book so that Westerners can figure out the mind-set. Being raised in an Asia-centric family has given me an inherent ability to move in Asian cultures fairly well, but I could never explain exactly why things are done the way they are. They simply ARE. It is hard to explain this to Westerners, but it would be a good first step for DMs and Players to figure it out.

I don't know if Mark would agree with me, but it just isn't Chanbara unless the characters specifically talk about the dead or have some interaction with a ghost of some sort. I particularly like the latter.

 

[jmucchiello]

A specific feat for Kenjiutsu to add a bonus to the use of the Gatana for example.

And how would such a feat differ from Weapn Focus (Katana)? There is no reason to clutter up the list of feats with mechanically identical feats that have different names.

Now, if Kenjitsu was a bonus with any sword, that would make more sense. But I would hate to see a bunch of feats that just were different names for stuff like WF (wakizashi). Or renaming two-weapon fighting so it referred specifically to the daisho.

 

[Ron]

Here's a proposal for folks who'd really like to see a d20 version of Sengoku.

If anyone is willing to develop the d20 material necessary for such a book and is willing to do so for conditional pay, feel free to drop me a line off-list (at mark@goldrushgames.com) and we can discuss it.

Cheers.

Mark,

Are you looking for additional conversion notes to d20, a new independent d20 book, or an d20 supplement to Oriental Adventures?

 

[d20books]

And how would such a feat differ from Weapn Focus (Katana)? There is no reason to clutter up the list of feats with mechanically identical feats that have different names.

Now, if Kenjitsu was a bonus with any sword, that would make more sense. But I would hate to see a bunch of feats that just were different names for stuff like WF (wakizashi). Or renaming two-weapon fighting so it referred specifically to the daisho.

Well, first off, I'm not suggesting duplicating any feat that there already is. You also forget about some of the "greater weapon focus" feats that are out there. If you look at some of the stylistic Kenjo and Kenjiutsu mannerisms, it could be a stackable +1 with a double 5-foot step, one before the attack and one after the attack. This would be mimick the typical Kenjo exercise of the step-strike-step.

I'm also toying with the idea of "Double Feats" where each feat would not equal "1" feat point. Obviously, to balance feats, you'd have to place particular values on each feat. This is actually the idea I'm having about balancing many of the unbalanced feats out on the market right now. "Sure, you can have that feat but it will cost you two feat points versus one."

Finally, I'm not thinking of stopping at "Double Feats" but continuing with "Feat Packages". Instead of having a long list of pre-reqs, a Feat Package could be picked up as "training" in a particular martial art. They would cost the equivilent of several feats but they would have an overall "discount" but also apply restrictions. In Kenjiutsu, for example, you would have Combat Reflexes, Cleave, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. It would only cost you two feat slots, but it could only be used on the Gatana and the Cleave and Combat Reflexes portions do not count as viable pre-reqs for other feats that require Cleave and/or Combat Reflexes as a restriction.

 

[Staffan]

I'm also toying with the idea of "Double Feats" where each feat would not equal "1" feat point. Obviously, to balance feats, you'd have to place particular values on each feat. This is actually the idea I'm having about balancing many of the unbalanced feats out on the market right now. "Sure, you can have that feat but it will cost you two feat points versus one."

I'm told Wheel of Time does something like that with some of the magic-based feats - in order to take the feat that actually does something, you first have to take the feat that's a prerequisite but does nothing (e.g. you need "Latent wolfbrother" before you can take "Wolfbrother" - not sure if that's an actual example, but it gets the point across).

 

[Ron]

I'm told Wheel of Time does something like that with some of the magic-based feats - in order to take the feat that actually does something, you first have to take the feat that's a prerequisite but does nothing (e.g. you need "Latent wolfbrother" before you can take "Wolfbrother" - not sure if that's an actual example, but it gets the point across).

You got it right. I am playing WoT and I think this rule sucks. At least, the intial feat could give some very limited advantage to incentive players to take it.

 

[d20books]

Feat Packages

You got it right. I am playing WoT and I think this rule sucks. At least, the intial feat could give some very limited advantage to incentive players to take it.

I'm definitely not talking about "wasted" feats. The thing I'm talking about is getting a feat package that is basically a bunch of feats at a discounted "Feat cost". There would be restrictions, as noted, to balance the feat collection.

Unless the second WoT feat is that super, I don't see why there would be such a balancing act to make the second feat that expensive. I'm not familiar with WoT, however.

It may just be psychological wrapper too. If the second feat is that wonderful that it actually does cost two feat points, I think they simply wanted to find a way to package it up within the D20 rules to make it work. I'm essentially doing the same thing but it has a new wrapper that doesn't seem to be as offensive.

My Feat Packages would also allow you to go either way with the pricing. In the WoT example, you basically have one feat that is worth two feat points. In my example, I have four feats that are combined in a discount of two or three feat points and restrictions.

To-may-to, To-mah-to.

 

[Nellisir]

Re: Feat Packages

In my example, I have four feats that are combined in a discount of two or three feat points and restrictions.

How do you picture this working? Would a character automatically get pseudo-feat D after taking feats A, B, & C (ie, just like the martial arts mastery system OA uses)? Would a character have to forfeit taking feats for several levels (depriving the character of abilities other characters of equivalent power would have)? Would a character get everything in a lump sum, and forfeit feats afterwards (putting them ahead of other characters)? Or otherwise?

Just curious
Nell.