Yet another DM problem (*sigh*)

[Tsyr]

As some of you know, I recently posted on a problem I had had with a DM I play under.

Well, it's gotten worse, and not just for me. Other people are starting to complain.

The strange thing is, he used to be a very good GM... when he did Rifts, or White Wolf games, he was very good. Now, though, I'm not so enthused with him.

This is basicly the summarized points our group had against him when we were talking after the last game, could people out there read them and then give me some advice, please?

----

1) He acts like he is one side, the players are the other, and there has to be a "winner". He's downright nasty at times about it. He grins like a maniac when we fail to detect a trap, shouts "yes!" when a monster critical hits a player, etc. This is one of the biggest problem we have. As a friend say, "It's not the substance of his games so much, it's the style he presents the substance in."

2) He has been adding "realism" as he calls it to the game left and right. Things that blow exiting tactics out of the water. Some examples include making attack rolls to see if a mage can hit the target with a fireball (Misses invariably hit one of the mage's body guards, roasting the entire party), requiring the clerics to make touch attacks with penalties due to us moving in order to heal us in combat (Making in-combat healing a fickle thing at best), having the cleric make INT checks to see if the cleric even knows we need healing in combat, etc.

2b) Despite this, when he sticks to the CR system as it was wrote. In fact, he generaly pits our 3-person-and-one-npc party (all 5th level) up against multiple CR-6 or greater threats. Then can't understand why we do so poorly.

3) He always has to include a DM-PC character in the party. This is a pratice I usualy can't stand just on generaly principle (I know one DM, and I'm not included in that number, who can pull it off well)... his characters are almost always quirky, almost always "well known" in his world, and almost always "better" than the rest of the party, despite being obstensibly of the same level.

4) Any NPC in his world could qualify for MENSA, challenge Nostradamus at a fotune-telling contest (and win), and seem to have "detect thoughts" up at all times. From the lowest band of goblins or mercenaries on up, his NPC tactics are always infallible, they NPCs seem so co-ordinated that you would think they were linked to the borg collective, can never seem to be bluffed or fooled, and seem to have spys following you around at all times, because they always seem to know as much about you as you yourself do.

5) He never starts us off at first level. This isn't a problem per say, I don't either as a general rule (I prefer third as a starting level). But he always gives us a couple magic items. But not according to any method... he rolls them randomly out of the book. So my shortsword and light-armour using fighter gets a magical scimitar and enchanted platemail, the platemail wearing fighter gets boots of elven kind, etc. He could just give us the money and let us buy them, but no... Granted, with a little work, we can generaly swap some items around, but that seems silly... I mean, IC, we just walk up to each other in a bar out of the blue and say "Hey, I know you have magic breastplate that you can't use... gimmie it." "Ok, here ya go stranger!". And we are normaly still left with several items that have no use (the magic scimitar, for example).

6) Paladins in his world seem to cast detect alignment on general principle whenever they meet someone. We saved a paladin from evil cultists attempting to sacrifice her to their god, took her back to her temple... but she wouldn't let me come inside, or pay me any of the reward, or heal me. Why? Because my character was lawful evil.

7) Kinda related to 1... sometimes he uses old Player Characters of his as villans... including one character that we always seem to run into... They are generaly FAR above the level the party should fight, and are decked out with numerous magical items (Belt of Haste, Wand of Slay Living, etc etc). If we do manage to kill them through some stroke of luck, instead of running away, he gets pissed. A day later we run into yet another uber-npc, even more powerfull than the last. If we somehow defeat THAT one, it just keeps repeating until we are properly shown our place.

----

There was more, but thats the gist of it.

Now, you may ask, why do I play with this guy, if I have so many problems with him?

He's been a friend for a long time. And as I said, he used to be a damn good DM, one of the best in the area as a matter of fact. He used to run almost exclusivly white wolf or Rifts, but it was GOOD whitewolf or rifts. None of the above problems did he have (except for a bit of 7, and a case of "DM's Girlfriend syndom when his girlfriend used to play) back then.

Then he went away to college last year. Found a gaming "club" there of some sort. When he came back, this is how he was. I still value him as a friend. But as a DM, I'm basicly worn out. I don't intend to keep doing to his sessions after this adventure we are in is concluded, to be honest, unless he... I dunno, goes back to the way he was or something.

Does the collective wisdom on this board have any advice for dealing with any of these problems, or any clue WHY he might have changed this much, and how he did?

*sigh*

 

[Leopold]

i am the dm for my group and i am guilty of example 1.

i cheer when my monsters get a critical (well not really but i grin!) and sigh when the players critical and kill them off. This is only for big baddies mind you and not fodder critters.

Do they hate me for it? nahh. They rahter like ganging up on me, it adds to the sense of bonding and unity. They are united to defeat me, which is the enemy, and move on to greater glory.


Is this bad? I don't think so. They love finding flaws in my plan as even simple goblins now are running from them screaming in terror. If I got a 20 int mind flayer i am damn sure going to play them like a chessmaster and not some mindless wildebeast.

Example: I had a dire boar charging through the woods running at the party. The lead tank moved in and attacked it, did it stop to attack him even though it got dealt massive damage? Heck no! it's pissed it's charging straight ahead! where was straight ahead? Right into the rogue! Now would a 3 int critter do this? Absolutely. Even though the fighter got an AoO it still went balls to the wall ahead to attack it's prey. It died but the rogue now has a fear of pork


have your DM read this thread, it will do him good..

 

[Tsyr]

I cheer when my monsters get a critical (well not really but i grin!) and sigh when the players critical and kill them off. This is only for big baddies mind you and not fodder critters.

He does it for ANYTHING. "boss" monsters. Fodder. Traps too (When they do a lot of damage).

 

[Desdichado]

No, don't have your DM read this thread, it'll offend him, no doubt, that you're asking for help in "dealing with" him. I'd just talk to him. Tell him that you value him as a friend and as a DM, but this latest campaign you're just not enjoying it anymore. Tell him the things you don't like.

You really shouldn't go out looking for ways to approach him, just talk to him. Do it naturally and don't be defensive.

 

[Hakkenshi]

In my group we always have a bit of *friendly* competition going on between the players and the DM to see who rolls most crits. They've already asked me not to use my PC dice when I DM 'cause they roll too high

But yes, I know what you mean, we had a game where one of my friends who rarely DMed with us ran a D&D game, and it was full of one-sided calls and excessive DM intervention. We figured, what the hey, it only happened once.

Then, a few months back, we played Rifts with this same person as DM, and ran into a number of situations where the only sensible solution would have been to run away, except that circumstances prevented us from doing so. Then, when we told him how we thought that unfair after the game, he proceeded to explain to us the convoluted and *only* solution he had left for us. Suffice it to say we were not pleased, and eventually the campaign was abandoned.

It's sad to say, but sometimes you realize that gamer friends can't play together without causing severe problems for friendship. I know where you're coming from, and for what it's worth, I feel for you, I really do.

 

[Henry]

Have you and the other players spoken with him about this? If you all have the same feeling, then you really need to talk with him face to face, friend to friend. Just tell him that the games have been a little too "adversarial" lately, and you and the others (HAVE THEM BACK YOU UP!) would like a little more "by the book" tone.

From the way it sounds, "by the book" is a better alternative than what you have now.

 

[Shadeus]

Yeah, I have a few ideas....

As some of you know, I recently posted on a problem I had had with a DM I play under.

1) He acts like he is one side, the players are the other, and there has to be a "winner". He's downright nasty at times about it. He grins like a maniac when we fail to detect a trap, shouts "yes!" when a monster critical hits a player, etc. This is one of the biggest problem we have. As a friend say, "It's not the substance of his games so much, it's the style he presents the substance in."

I don't think this as a huge deal to be honest. He's the one that spent 5 hours creating the adventure and I don't think its bad. It's better though if its said IC.

2) He has been adding "realism" as he calls it to the game left and right. Things that blow exiting tactics out of the water. Some examples include making attack rolls to see if a mage can hit the target with a fireball (Misses invariably hit one of the mage's body guards, roasting the entire party), requiring the clerics to make touch attacks with penalties due to us moving in order to heal us in combat (Making in-combat healing a fickle thing at best), having the cleric make INT checks to see if the cleric even knows we need healing in combat, etc.

2b) Despite this, when he sticks to the CR system as it was wrote. In fact, he generaly pits our 3-person-and-one-npc party (all 5th level) up against multiple CR-6 or greater threats. Then can't understand why we do so poorly.

This is ridiculous. Do you roleplay taking a crap too? You only need to target a fireball if you are shooting it into a tiny space. Healing is hard enough without adding the penalty of a moving target. At most, it should be a normal touch attack (although I don't agree with it). Int checks?!? I would be mad at that. "Is he bleeding or not?"

3) He always has to include a DM-PC character in the party. This is a pratice I usualy can't stand just on generaly principle (I know one DM, and I'm not included in that number, who can pull it off well)... his characters are almost always quirky, almost always "well known" in his world, and almost always "better" than the rest of the party, despite being obstensibly of the same level.

Yes, that's not surprising. BTW, I agree with you, its very hard for a DM to play an NPC in the party and still run the adventure.

4) Any NPC in his world could qualify for MENSA, challenge Nostradamus at a fotune-telling contest (and win), and seem to have "detect thoughts" up at all times. From the lowest band of goblins or mercenaries on up, his NPC tactics are always infallible, they NPCs seem so co-ordinated that you would think they were linked to the borg collective, can never seem to be bluffed or fooled, and seem to have spys following you around at all times, because they always seem to know as much about you as you yourself do.

This is a pet-peeve of mine as well. I think DMs do this too often. I complained to my DM about this as well. But his reasoning was interesting. He said I was too good a player to fall for anything less than the best tactics. So while a compliment, I still found it annoying.

5) He never starts us off at first level. This isn't a problem per say, I don't either as a general rule (I prefer third as a starting level). But he always gives us a couple magic items. But not according to any method... he rolls them randomly out of the book. So my shortsword and light-armour using fighter gets a magical scimitar and enchanted platemail, the platemail wearing fighter gets boots of elven kind, etc. He could just give us the money and let us buy them, but no... Granted, with a little work, we can generaly swap some items around, but that seems silly... I mean, IC, we just walk up to each other in a bar out of the blue and say "Hey, I know you have magic breastplate that you can't use... gimmie it." "Ok, here ya go stranger!". And we are normaly still left with several items that have no use (the magic scimitar, for example).

You should be able to know what the magic items are before you make your character and be able to adjust accordingly. If you inherit the scimitar from your father, then you should have an opportunity to train with it. If you don't want to use it, that's fine too...

6) Paladins in his world seem to cast detect alignment on general principle whenever they meet someone. We saved a paladin from evil cultists attempting to sacrifice her to their god, took her back to her temple... but she wouldn't let me come inside, or pay me any of the reward, or heal me. Why? Because my character was lawful evil.

Ah yes. The paladin who is played like a lawful-evil hard ass...I know it well. I don't think its out of line for a paladin to use their abilities. But, I think they need to have some tact with using it. First of all, it offensive. They don't take you at your word (or your actions in your case) but have to use their magic to know?

7) Kinda related to 1... sometimes he uses old Player Characters of his as villans... including one character that we always seem to run into... They are generaly FAR above the level the party should fight, and are decked out with numerous magical items (Belt of Haste, Wand of Slay Living, etc etc). If we do manage to kill them through some stroke of luck, instead of running away, he gets pissed. A day later we run into yet another uber-npc, even more powerfull than the last. If we somehow defeat THAT one, it just keeps repeating until we are properly shown our place.

Yes, this one doesn't surprise me either. BTW, I thought wands were limited to 4th-level spells....

Then he went away to college last year. Found a gaming "club" there of some sort. When he came back, this is how he was.

And this is the source of all your problems. I can tell you exactly what happened because its happened to me with one of my longtime friends. He thinks he's better than you. Period. He's had a lot more experience gaming with this group at school and he feels he should be wiping the floor with you and your tactics.

I can tell you realize some of this by your post. #7 tells a lot. "Puts you in your place." That's exactly what he's trying to do. Be in control. Show how he's the best roleplayer and can defeat your tactics.

I must admit, I catch myself falling into this role from time to time with one of my gaming groups. My solution was to stop DMing because I was ruining people's fun. So now I'm a full-time player.

You might suggest the same to this friend as well. Maybe tough it out for the summer (since I assume he'll be going back to school) and suggest you start a new campaign over breaks, etc. If you do talk to your friend directly about this, tell him you are feeling railroaded, but don't be as direct as I was in this post (or you may lose a friend). You may ask for his reasoning behind a certain situation (strictly OOC), the the paladin using her detection on you.

I hope this was of some help.

 

[Rune]

1) He acts like he is one side, the players are the other, and there has to be a "winner". He's downright nasty at times about it. He grins like a maniac when we fail to detect a trap, shouts "yes!" when a monster critical hits a player, etc. This is one of the biggest problem we have. As a friend say, "It's not the substance of his games so much, it's the style he presents the substance in."

I do this too, to some extent, but not like that. I tell the players at the start of the game that my job in combats is to be a bastard; their job is to outwit me. I expect them to outwit me regularly.

2) He has been adding "realism" as he calls it to the game left and right. Things that blow exiting tactics out of the water. Some examples include making attack rolls to see if a mage can hit the target with a fireball (Misses invariably hit one of the mage's body guards, roasting the entire party), requiring the clerics to make touch attacks with penalties due to us moving in order to heal us in combat (Making in-combat healing a fickle thing at best), having the cleric make INT checks to see if the cleric even knows we need healing in combat, etc.

This isn't adding "realism." This is just being a jerk. Does he do the same to his NPCs?

2b) Despite this, when he sticks to the CR system as it was wrote. In fact, he generaly pits our 3-person-and-one-npc party (all 5th level) up against multiple CR-6 or greater threats. Then can't understand why we do so poorly.

I regularly do worse to my PCs in this area. See my response to 1, above.

3) He always has to include a DM-PC character in the party. This is a pratice I usualy can't stand just on generaly principle (I know one DM, and I'm not included in that number, who can pull it off well)... his characters are almost always quirky, almost always "well known" in his world, and almost always "better" than the rest of the party, despite being obstensibly of the same level.

I hate that!

4) Any NPC in his world could qualify for MENSA, challenge Nostradamus at a fotune-telling contest (and win), and seem to have "detect thoughts" up at all times. From the lowest band of goblins or mercenaries on up, his NPC tactics are always infallible, they NPCs seem so co-ordinated that you would think they were linked to the borg collective, can never seem to be bluffed or fooled, and seem to have spys following you around at all times, because they always seem to know as much about you as you yourself do.

I hate that, too!

5) He never starts us off at first level. This isn't a problem per say, I don't either as a general rule (I prefer third as a starting level). But he always gives us a couple magic items. But not according to any method... he rolls them randomly out of the book. So my shortsword and light-armour using fighter gets a magical scimitar and enchanted platemail, the platemail wearing fighter gets boots of elven kind, etc. He could just give us the money and let us buy them, but no... Granted, with a little work, we can generaly swap some items around, but that seems silly... I mean, IC, we just walk up to each other in a bar out of the blue and say "Hey, I know you have magic breastplate that you can't use... gimmie it." "Ok, here ya go stranger!". And we are normaly still left with several items that have no use (the magic scimitar, for example).

That's just a power-trip (like everything else, so far). He doesn't want you all to define your own characters.

6) Paladins in his world seem to cast detect alignment on general principle whenever they meet someone. We saved a paladin from evil cultists attempting to sacrifice her to their god, took her back to her temple... but she wouldn't let me come inside, or pay me any of the reward, or heal me. Why? Because my character was lawful evil.

I see nothing wrong with this one; I do something similar, although in my games, detecting evil is a subconscious thing, even for players. It's not like, "I detect evil. He's evil? I slay!" Instead, it's like "there's something...wrong...about that guy over there."

7) Kinda related to 1... sometimes he uses old Player Characters of his as villans... including one character that we always seem to run into... They are generaly FAR above the level the party should fight, and are decked out with numerous magical items (Belt of Haste, Wand of Slay Living, etc etc). If we do manage to kill them through some stroke of luck, instead of running away, he gets pissed. A day later we run into yet another uber-npc, even more powerfull than the last. If we somehow defeat THAT one, it just keeps repeating until we are properly shown our place.

Sounds like a real power-trip. And stupid. If you don't want your precious (N)PCs to get killed, don't set them up against the PCs!

Does the collective wisdom on this board have any advice for dealing with any of these problems, or any clue WHY he might have changed this much, and how he did?

First of all, get him to run Hackmaster. It sounds like he'd be perfect for that.

Second, all I can suggest is for you (or someone else) to suggest running a couple of games on the side for a brief break. At the end of each session, get written feedback about how the game went--both good and bad. Hopefully the other players will talk about how good an idea this is (you can tell them to, if you set this up).

If you're lucky, your DM will take the hint and start doing the same, which will allow you all to gradually suggest changes to his style without really hurting him.

It is very important that the temp DM not get defensive about bad feedback, so that the other DM doesn't have an excuse to become defensive, either.

Good luck. It looks like you'll need it.

 

[Leopold]

He does it for ANYTHING. "boss" monsters. Fodder. Traps too (When they do a lot of damage).

see that kills the fun..you can't cheer too often as the players start to get bored..once in a while you whoop for joy as your bugbear assasin backstabs the cleric for 8d6 pts of damage!!! mUHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!

 

[Katerek]

Tsyr

There are several approaches that you can take. My initial response would be to tell him to kiss off, but lets face it, here in the real world that usually isn't the option.

If I were in your shoes, here is what I would do. This is based on what I have read and inferred from your post.

Don't fight him, if he wants the party killed, take a dive. When the party dies, take the blame. Dont act disapointed in him, act disapointed in yourselves. Blame your 'mistake' on burn out.

Bear in mind, if he wasn't your friend I wouldn't prescribe this method. Obviously there are emotional issues or you would have already talked to him about it. I understand your plight.

After the mistake, everyone take a break, and don't game for a while. Then, try to talk someone else into running, and play it off as an idea that you have really wanted to try for a while. It sounds like your DM is suffering from hardcore burnout and just needs to be on the other side of the screen for a while. This isn't all that unusual.

If you cannot find someone else to run, take a break from RPG's in general. Have a game night instead. Play some Magic, or even better, some mindless board games. Do this regularly for a few months and then see if the spark doesn't come back.

I have been DMing for almost 20 years now, and I have been like your friend in the past. I found that I have to take at least a month off every year and do absolutely nothing in relation to gaming to keep my stride. I am a pretty popular DM locally, not that I am bragging, and it seems to work for me. Also, you might examine some of the other stressors in his life, he probably just needs a break.

Try a different schedule for gaming. My group and I only play 3 nights out of the month, and we always take the month of September off. My campaign has been going on for several years now and it has gone so iincredibally smooth that it is unbelievable sometimes.

Give this some thought and let me know what you think, I would be more than happy to act as a further sounding board for you.

Later.