Yet another look at KotSF/4th Ed.


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Endroren

Adventurer
Publisher
Let me preface by saying I'm not trying to be a jerk when I ask is...I'm trying to understand the differing opinions.

What IS a roleplaying game to you?​


In other words, what does a game system have to include to be able to honestly include the words "Roleplaying Game" somewhere on the cover? Some manner of definition must be possible, otherwise one could call anything an RPG.
 

Stomphoof

First Post
Cheesepie said:
Could you please point out where he stated that Keep on the Shadowfell is a comprehensive rules compendium for the 4E game system? He did not. However, he did say that KotS was a "A $30 book dubbed "An Introduction to Dungeons and Dragons" that professes to show you what it is like to play the game.", and the game it showed him was not to his taste.

Is KotS-only 4E the same game as real 4E? I seriously doubt it. In that case, didn't Wizards monumentally screw up their introductory adventure?

EDIT: Please note that I am very, very in favour of 4E. It's just Endroren's opinion is not invalid. ;)

Its not an explicit statement however he is repeatedly stating that since this is the intro adventure then this is the way the game is meant to be played and is acting in a manner that suggests that he believes that this is the way 4th Ed is going to work out.

In my opinion, he is acting irrationally.

However, I do not believe his opinion is invalid. I never said that. I am simply pointing out flaws in his logic.

In the end, all I have to say is this

"If you dont like the game as it is, then dont buy it and quit worrying about it".
 


JeffB

Legend
I'll preface by saying I like KOTS so far (and I was all set up NOT to). However I think it's been marketed very poorly.

Its a horrible introduction to the game of D&D

Its a good introduction to the 4E rule-set for players familiar with the game previously


I think Wizards should have gone the 3E route: i.e. 3 core books, an introductory adventure (that requires the 3 books) and a "basic set" with streamlined rules and adventure material for the Novice.
 

Ingolf

First Post
Endroren said:
Show me these rules in 4E that support the sort of things I'm talking about and you will convince me that it isn't Hero Quest II.

I suspect that as soon as 4e is available, someone here will take you up on that challenge.
 

Vendark

First Post
Endroren said:
Reaction rolls?
Haggling skill?
Seduction skills?
Gaining followers and determining their willingness to follow orders?
Rules for determining whether a hireling is likely to work for you based on your personality?
Disads including psychological and social?

GURPS, HERO, 1E and 2E D&D, Hackmaster, RIFTS, even 3.0 and 3.5. ALL of these have hard rules for roleplaying. And I'm not even delving into the "diceless" or "dice light" systems.

Hold on, you're saying that the Trading and Seduction skills in HERO (for instance) count as roleplaying rules, but the Diplomacy and Bluff skills in 4E don't? What criteria are you using to make that distinction?
 

Cheesepie

First Post
Stomphoof said:
Its not an explicit statement however he is repeatedly stating that since this is the intro adventure then this is the way the game is meant to be played and is acting in a manner that suggests that he believes that this is the way 4th Ed is going to work out.

Considering this is the preview adventure and that Wizards intends it to show players what it is like to play the game, I would think that's what Wizards would want him to think as well. ;)

Stomphoof said:
"If you dont like the game as it is, then dont buy it and quit worrying about it".
He is! But he damn well has the right to discuss it with other gamers on the interbutts, doesn't he?!
 

Endroren

Adventurer
Publisher
Stomphoof said:
Its not an explicit statement however he is repeatedly stating that since this is the intro adventure then this is the way the game is meant to be played and is acting in a manner that suggests that he believes that this is the way 4th Ed is going to work out.

What is the point of an intro adventure if it doesn't intorduce you to the game? I think your logic is irrational and flawed frankly. Either WotC botched the job, which worries me about the rest of what 4E has in store, OR this really IS the game, in which case I'm equally worried.

So far, depsite people being sure for some unclear reason that this ISN'T the case, WotC has TOLD us this is the game...this, the way the module plays, IS 4E. If it ISN'T, then it's about the dumbest introduction ever...like a crappy trailer for a great movie.

"If you dont like the game as it is, then dont buy it and quit worrying about it".

Ah yes, the "if you don't like it shut up". Seriously, I've given D&D thousands and thousands of dollars over the past 20 years and more time then any other thing in my life outside my family. I have a stake in this hobby and I have every right to be disappointed, and seek SOME sort of hope that I'm wrong, if it seems they've tossed out much of what I've long loved about the game.

So please, don't suggest that "if you don't like it go away." I can look for answers.
 

Stomphoof

First Post
Cheesepie said:
He is! But he damn well has the right to discuss it with other gamers on the interbutts, doesn't he?!

Possibly. I would hope people are smart enough though to realize that a preview adventure simply cannot possibly contain everything about a game. It is a preview after all. Perhaps that is why we dont see one of each class as a pregen? They had to release the Warlord on the web, and we still dont have a pregen Warlock.

Also, they added a skill challenge online to add to the preview adventure as well.

Furthermore, he does have every right to discuss it. However, he seems to be getting his "panties in a wad" so to speak over it.

I will say this: I bought KotS so I could test out what, in my opinion, would be the greatest change to DnD - Combat. Thats what I expect.

I may not like the changes once I get to actually put them in place. I may decide I love em.

But to imply that 4th Ed is going to be exactly like this preview adventure is just outright silly.
 

Endroren

Adventurer
Publisher
Vendark said:
Hold on, you're saying that the Trading and Seduction skills in HERO (for instance) count as roleplaying rules, but the Diplomacy and Bluff skills in 4E don't? What criteria are you using to make that distinction?

Have you read the skill descriptions in HERO? Or better yet, have you read Ultimate Skill? These are well designed, robust, story driven rules. And it isn't just two rules. If you really want to compare 4E to HERO, just look at the full skill list and the Talents list and the disads list. Really, you can't compare a 2 line description in 4E to a page and a half elsewhere.

And I can't say that a page and a half is the way to go, but if you really cared about those skills and their use in the game, wouldn't they get more attention? That's all I'm saying.
 

Stomphoof

First Post
Endroren said:
Ah yes, the "if you don't like it shut up". Seriously, I've given D&D thousands and thousands of dollars over the past 20 years and more time then any other thing in my life outside my family. I have a stake in this hobby and I have every right to be disappointed, and seek SOME sort of hope that I'm wrong, if it seems they've tossed out much of what I've long loved about the game.

So please, don't suggest that "if you don't like it go away." I can look for answers.

And dont put words in my mouth. I did not say "If you do not like it, Shaddup", although I was tempted to.

I said "If you do not like it then don't buy it and quit worrying about it." That means that dont spend your money on it, and dont stress yourself out about the changes. Find a game that is more your style, like perhaps Pathfinder from Piazo. Or Hackmaster, as you seem to like it.

I am gonna stop responding now, as it is a waste of my time. You don't like the way 4th Ed is going, thats your choice. I however believe that there is more to the game then just Combat.

I would honestly be amazed if they could fill up a 300 page DMG and 200ish page PHB with nothing but rules for combat.

Seriously.
 

Cheesepie

First Post
Endroren said:
What is the point of an intro adventure if it doesn't intorduce you to the game? I think your logic is irrational and flawed frankly. Either WotC botched the job, which worries me about the rest of what 4E has in store, OR this really IS the game, in which case I'm equally worried.

So far, depsite people being sure for some unclear reason that this ISN'T the case, WotC has TOLD us this is the game...this, the way the module plays, IS 4E. If it ISN'T, then it's about the dumbest introduction ever...like a crappy trailer for a great movie.
I totally already covered this for you, dude. ;)
 

Vendark

First Post
Endroren said:
Have you read the skill descriptions in HERO? Or better yet, have you read Ultimate Skill? These are well designed, robust, story driven rules. And it isn't just two rules. If you really want to compare 4E to HERO, just look at the full skill list and the Talents list and the disads list. Really, you can't compare a 2 line description in 4E to a page and a half elsewhere.

I own the Ultimate Skill, but invoking it isn't very fair. You're comparing a complete game line, with rules spanning dozens of books, to the incomplete, introductory rules for an unreleased, brand new game line. You're heavily stacking the deck.
 

Endroren

Adventurer
Publisher
Stomphoof said:
But to imply that 4th Ed is going to be exactly like this preview adventure is just outright silly.

Not nearly as silly as you claiming you know any more than I do. Again, I'm basing what I know from facts, you're basing yours on conjecture.

And frankly, I'd LOVE IT if they show me something better in 4E...and I WANT to buy the books...but I'm worried...because I LOVE D&D and WANT to like 4E but so far they aren't showing me anything that makes me believe they're giving me a cool new RPG.

So yeah, I am upset and yes, I have a right to be, and yes, I pray to Boccob I'm proven wrong, but so far WotC isn't giving me much hope.

And my initial posts went up because a) someone else felt similarly and others attacked him and his style of play as the flaw rather than the game, and b) I hoped someone might offer me hard facts to prove me wrong.

(A) is said and done. (B) has still failed to happen. You're not going to convince me with "Oh, I'm sure it'll be fine later."
 

The 4E DMG includes an entire chapter on how to mechanically build non-combat encounters. This includes a "skill challenge" system that covers everything from in-depths negotiations to non-combat action such as pursuits.

(This fact was already public knowledge, actually, but I guess some people missed it.)

Is that more of what people are asking/looking for?
 

Cheesepie

First Post
Endroren said:
And my initial posts went up because a) someone else felt similarly and others attacked him and his style of play as the flaw rather than the game, and b) I hoped someone might offer me hard facts to prove me wrong.

(A) is said and done. (B) has still failed to happen. You're not going to convince me with "Oh, I'm sure it'll be fine later."
You're gonna have to wait until June 6th or so for (B) to happen, unless Morrus feels exceptionally generous and benevolent today. ;)

EDIT: ...or Mouseferatu, it seems. XD
 
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LostSoul

Adventurer
Endroren said:
I ABSOLUTELY agree that there are ways to do it, but what I keep saying is that when they make it a side note and fail to explore it fully, it suggests it isn't important to the game.

I agree. Where I disagree with you is that suggesting that it's not important - while still allowing people to whom it is important to use it - is different from a board game, which has no rules at all to use.
 

Endroren

Adventurer
Publisher
Vendark said:
I own the Ultimate Skill, but invoking it isn't very fair. You're comparing a complete game line, with rules spanning dozens of books, to the incomplete, introductory rules for an unreleased, brand new game line. You're heavily stacking the deck.

Invoking ANY of the 3" thick HERO books "heavily" stack the deck. ;) That's why I offered it as a secondary example. :)

Look, MAYBE the real 4E books will be different but even just using the standard HERO rules , even the Sidekick, as a guide, there is a distinct difference in the focus of the rules. 4E, in this introductory module which may or may not have been a good example of play (despite the fact that it is supposed to be) gives little more than lip service to social skills. Pair this with what the WotC designers have said and I think I have a valid concern here.

And as I mentioned, I HOPE I'm wrong, but honestly, I'm pretty concerned that I've hit this on the head.
 

Endroren

Adventurer
Publisher
Cheesepie said:
I totally already covered this for you, dude.

I was shooting for the +2 Combat Advantage from Flanking. ;)

Mouseferatu said:
The 4E DMG includes an entire chapter on how to mechanically build non-combat encounters. This includes a "skill challenge" system that covers everything from in-depths negotiations to non-combat action such as pursuits. (This fact was already public knowledge, actually, but I guess some people missed it.) Is that more of what people are asking/looking for?

You've given me hope! That's headed the right direction! Wish that had been in the stuff I read or perhaps hinted at in the KotS?

In the end I'll say again that I think it is a VERY fun game...it's just a question of what sort of game it truns out to be!
 

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