Cheesepie said:Could you please point out where he stated that Keep on the Shadowfell is a comprehensive rules compendium for the 4E game system? He did not. However, he did say that KotS was a "A $30 book dubbed "An Introduction to Dungeons and Dragons" that professes to show you what it is like to play the game.", and the game it showed him was not to his taste.
Is KotS-only 4E the same game as real 4E? I seriously doubt it. In that case, didn't Wizards monumentally screw up their introductory adventure?
EDIT: Please note that I am very, very in favour of 4E. It's just Endroren's opinion is not invalid.![]()
PeterWeller said:Probably because it's an idiotic impression
Endroren said:Show me these rules in 4E that support the sort of things I'm talking about and you will convince me that it isn't Hero Quest II.
Endroren said:Reaction rolls?
Haggling skill?
Seduction skills?
Gaining followers and determining their willingness to follow orders?
Rules for determining whether a hireling is likely to work for you based on your personality?
Disads including psychological and social?
GURPS, HERO, 1E and 2E D&D, Hackmaster, RIFTS, even 3.0 and 3.5. ALL of these have hard rules for roleplaying. And I'm not even delving into the "diceless" or "dice light" systems.
Stomphoof said:Its not an explicit statement however he is repeatedly stating that since this is the intro adventure then this is the way the game is meant to be played and is acting in a manner that suggests that he believes that this is the way 4th Ed is going to work out.
He is! But he damn well has the right to discuss it with other gamers on the interbutts, doesn't he?!Stomphoof said:"If you dont like the game as it is, then dont buy it and quit worrying about it".
Stomphoof said:Its not an explicit statement however he is repeatedly stating that since this is the intro adventure then this is the way the game is meant to be played and is acting in a manner that suggests that he believes that this is the way 4th Ed is going to work out.
"If you dont like the game as it is, then dont buy it and quit worrying about it".
Cheesepie said:He is! But he damn well has the right to discuss it with other gamers on the interbutts, doesn't he?!
Vendark said:Hold on, you're saying that the Trading and Seduction skills in HERO (for instance) count as roleplaying rules, but the Diplomacy and Bluff skills in 4E don't? What criteria are you using to make that distinction?
Endroren said:Ah yes, the "if you don't like it shut up". Seriously, I've given D&D thousands and thousands of dollars over the past 20 years and more time then any other thing in my life outside my family. I have a stake in this hobby and I have every right to be disappointed, and seek SOME sort of hope that I'm wrong, if it seems they've tossed out much of what I've long loved about the game.
So please, don't suggest that "if you don't like it go away." I can look for answers.
I totally already covered this for you, dude.Endroren said:What is the point of an intro adventure if it doesn't intorduce you to the game? I think your logic is irrational and flawed frankly. Either WotC botched the job, which worries me about the rest of what 4E has in store, OR this really IS the game, in which case I'm equally worried.
So far, depsite people being sure for some unclear reason that this ISN'T the case, WotC has TOLD us this is the game...this, the way the module plays, IS 4E. If it ISN'T, then it's about the dumbest introduction ever...like a crappy trailer for a great movie.
Endroren said:Have you read the skill descriptions in HERO? Or better yet, have you read Ultimate Skill? These are well designed, robust, story driven rules. And it isn't just two rules. If you really want to compare 4E to HERO, just look at the full skill list and the Talents list and the disads list. Really, you can't compare a 2 line description in 4E to a page and a half elsewhere.
Stomphoof said:But to imply that 4th Ed is going to be exactly like this preview adventure is just outright silly.
You're gonna have to wait until June 6th or so for (B) to happen, unless Morrus feels exceptionally generous and benevolent today.Endroren said:And my initial posts went up because a) someone else felt similarly and others attacked him and his style of play as the flaw rather than the game, and b) I hoped someone might offer me hard facts to prove me wrong.
(A) is said and done. (B) has still failed to happen. You're not going to convince me with "Oh, I'm sure it'll be fine later."
Endroren said:I ABSOLUTELY agree that there are ways to do it, but what I keep saying is that when they make it a side note and fail to explore it fully, it suggests it isn't important to the game.
Vendark said:I own the Ultimate Skill, but invoking it isn't very fair. You're comparing a complete game line, with rules spanning dozens of books, to the incomplete, introductory rules for an unreleased, brand new game line. You're heavily stacking the deck.
Cheesepie said:I totally already covered this for you, dude.
Mouseferatu said:The 4E DMG includes an entire chapter on how to mechanically build non-combat encounters. This includes a "skill challenge" system that covers everything from in-depths negotiations to non-combat action such as pursuits. (This fact was already public knowledge, actually, but I guess some people missed it.) Is that more of what people are asking/looking for?