Yet another look at KotSF/4th Ed.

[Jhaelen]

Area effects provoke opportunity attacks. So dumping a spell on yourself to clear minions isn't the best plan unless the minions can't hit you (or can't hit you very often).

Well, Burning Hands is a Close Blast 5, so it doesn't provoke OAs.

It's absolutely an "uber minis game" rather than a true RPG.

Care to elaborate on what a 'true' RPG is?

Sleep does seem like a crap spell now.

As opposed to the 3E version?
I think it's fantastic. In the D&D XP delve it was THE decisive power to stand a chance at surviving the encounter with the black dragon.

I only experienced both of those adventures from the player side, and I would have to agree with you that Forge of Fury was pretty bad - we never finished it and this effectively ended that campaign.

I think Forge of Fury was probably the best of the whole 3.0 'Adventure Path' from WotC. It did an excellent job of putting diverse creatures into a big dungeon complex with noticeably different areas.
It was challenging, but not overly so. I think there were three character deaths in the adventure:
- one tried to charge over the rope bridge very early in the adventure and fell down.
- one died in the roper area after stepping into a gray ooze.
- one died during the fight against the dragon.
They knew better than to try to fight against the roper. It turned out to be an excellent opportunity for roleplaying.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

So WotC break the third rule of adventure design... The first mentioned NPC has a dumb name. Caralel (?) who of course alternated between Kal-El, Caramac, Caramel and Captain Cadbury. And the rest of the NPC's got ignored and abused equally... Poor DM, he suffered with dignity and even tried to keep things in character. I'm so proud.

I believe I have solved this problem. Simply rename him "Malephant."

 

[Endroren]

The mythic '15 minute workday' is not a product of rules. It's a product of some players approach to the game, coupled with what appears to be conscious DM reinforcement of that approach.

Huzzah! What he said!

 

[Cadfan]

One of the things that makes an RPG VERY different from any other game is that it is a living, breathing environment that doesn't require a specific map of actions for its exploration. RPGs are written with this in mind, knowing that characters might ignore a doorway, flee from the enemy, fall back and set a trap, or handle the scenario in any one of a million creative ways.

I'm just not seeing ANY of that in the now published materials, the posts about what is to come, or the previews others have offered. I'm sorry, I DO think this game is cool but when I read these rules, I'm not seeing a role-playing game.

I also rarely see things when I wear blinders.

 

[Endroren]

I also rarely see things when I wear blinders.

Elaborate, please. If you're going to attack my opinions on the subject at least give me the opportunity to defend myself.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Seriously, were you playing the same game? Ever use reaction rolls? Ever read the modules all the way through and read the complex interelationships the writers created for the monsters and ways they might interact with players? Sure, not every adventure but many of them. Ever notice that combat was expected to extend beyond the room, perhaps spilling into the hall and out of the dungeon? Have you looked at the introductory adventure? It's a completely different thing. It's a series of complex D&D mini's scenarios plain and simple.

And I'm not just talking about comparing this to 1E or 2E. We know they had problems. We don't need to rehash that. But they set the groundwork for future RPGs. Take a bigger look at RPGs. Look at the full breadth of RPGs out there today. Savage Worlds. RIFTS. HERO. White Wolf games. The Monte Cook materials. Pathfinder. And yes, even 3E and 3.5E. These all have distinct qualities and presentations that encourage the players to break out of the situation, to explore the world around them, to change the course of the adventure.

One of the things that makes an RPG VERY different from any other game is that it is a living, breathing environment that doesn't require a specific map of actions for its exploration. RPGs are written with this in mind, knowing that characters might ignore a doorway, flee from the enemy, fall back and set a trap, or handle the scenario in any one of a million creative ways.

I'm just not seeing ANY of that in the now published materials, the posts about what is to come, or the previews others have offered. I'm sorry, I DO think this game is cool but when I read these rules, I'm not seeing a role-playing game.

Spoilers for Content of Keep on the Shadowfell
[sblock]
Did you miss these parts:
- Monsters that follow PCs (and how far)
- Monsters that flee to alert others (Kobolds breaking off, the Homunculus that warns his master)
- The Elf in Winterhaven that is secretly a spy and will alert his allies

- The roleplaying advice for the NPCs in Winterhaven and in the encounters? (The mayor, the "wise man", Splurg, the "head-honcho" of Orcus (etc.)?
- The DM suggestions on how to change the NPCs personality or add new ones in Winterhaven?
[/sblock]

 

[Endroren]

Spoilers for Content of Keep on the Shadowfell
Did you miss these parts:

First, the examples you give that involve combat are just more minis tactics and not roleplaying IMO. Second, regarding the other examples, I didn't miss these. A few sentences here and there that refer to personalities and the ability of Bruce Cordell, an excellent writer, to add some story to a tactics based adventure, doesn't make this an RPG. The focus of this game is on tactical combats. Everything in between is just fluff and filler.

In my experience, a roleplaying game is ALL about what happens in between. The combat is simply the punctuation to those in between moments. That isn't what I'm seeing here. This entire game seems to be written as a series of tactical combats. Here and there they sprinkle in some story but that isn't the point of the game.

This is exactly what I would expect from Hero Quest, Descent, Runebound, the UK D&D board game that came out a couple years back. Unfortunately, when you pull the emphasis of the game away from the characters and their stories and place it squarely on the battles, you lose the key element of what makes an RPG different than any other game that exists.

Now, did WotC see that a lot of GMs never figured this out? Did they realize that these GMs wouldbe just as happy with a super cool minis game? Yeah, probably...but how unfortunate that they've nearly eliminated the possibility that players might turn their game into something more.

 

[brehobit]

I think though that the point is that 4E doesn't seem to focus on that style of play. Rather, it is HERO QUEST 4E with the D&D name. Very cool. Very fun. But just look at the structure of the game as set forth by WotC. It's absolutely an "uber minis game" rather than a true RPG.

Is that bad? Not really. If it is still fun, then great. But I think his complaint is on the money and very valid.

My exact thoughts. As a mini's game, it looks great. As an RPG, not so much.

I will buy it and I will play it. I found 3.x to be a step toward a board game. 2e and 1e were less about combat rules (they didn't try to have rules for all cases) and more about pretending to be somewhere. 4e goes even further. And what it shoots for it seems to hit quite nicely. But I don't find the system immersive.

Mark

 

[Celebrim]

My exact thoughts. As a mini's game, it looks great. As an RPG, not so much.

Pretty close agreement with my thoughts as well.

It's amazing how many of us have formed the same impression despite the fact that this opinion is apparantly badwrongthinking.

 

[PeterWeller]

Pretty close agreement with my thoughts as well.

It's amazing how many of us have formed the same impression despite the fact that this opinion is apparantly badwrongthinking.

Probably because it's an idiotic impression formed from a combat heavy, hack & slash introductory module that's designed to showcase the major change to D&D: combat.

The assertion that it's just advanced advanced Hero Quest is ridiculous. First of all, it ignores the simple fact that you could, and many did, role play in HQ and WHQ. It ignores the fact that rules aren't necessary for role playing. It ignores the fact that you can, any many have and still will, role play during combat. It ignores the fact that there is space between the fights, during which you can role play to your heart's content. It ignores the fact that D&D, and all RPGs for that matter, have asked you, the player, to bring your creativity, wit, and cunning to the table. It ignores the fact that you decide how important, in depth and common combat is in your game.