Yet another look at KotSF/4th Ed.

[Amphimir Míriel]

My players do that, and the monsters are going to regroup/get reinforcements.

That area you cleared yesterday? Guess what?

This seems like the best solution to that problem (well, that and "random" nightly encounters full of PartyLevel+4 monsters... That'll teach them :evilgrin

Answer to PCs who *take advantage* of resting rules = wandering monsters (if you don't use them already)

Exactly!

Now, regarding Roll vs. Role, I have always found that, apart from character creation, the only thing I need from a rpg system is conflict resolution rules. Which basically mean combat and some skill system. Everything else is handled by the story, thank you very much.

I have not seen the full 4th edition rules, but 2 things sold it for me: the promise of improved combat rules (everybody cooperates!) and the streamlined skill system (skill challenges are a simple idea, yet something that really adds drama to stuff like opening a door while arrows fly above your head)

edit: Mhmm... It seems I came late to the party... it seems that Mouseferatu came in and saved the day for 4e...

 

[Jhaelen]

Until the actual sourcebooks come out you are basing everything off a level 1-3 adventure. And it is entirely possible that they decided to write a combat oriented adventure. The biggest changes that I am aware of are those to the combat engine.

Exactly. If I am not completely mistaken someone from WotC mentioned that the adventure is targeted on the existing D&D player base, not complete rpg newbs.

So, it's not supposed to be an introduction into role playing games, it's supposed to showcase the differences between 3E and 4E.

 

[M.L. Martin]

The Basic Set comes out this autumn.

A smart move on WotC's part, IMO. Trying to draw new players in at launch might be counterproductive--they'd likely be alienated by the flamewars between "4E is the Pinnacle of Gaming, a masterwork of design that will never be equalled, and the path to universal peace and propserity!" and "4E is a betrayal of the memory of Gygax, the spirit of D&D, and all that is right and good!".

Bring them in once we've all reached some sort of peace, even if it is only the peace of the grave.

 

[PeterWeller]

That seems a strange approach. If the module is "introductory" the goal is to teach players WHAT the game is. Now if it were called a "conversion" module, designed to teach players about what was different I'd believe your argument.

Look, if this is an introductory module, what WotC is telling us is "this is what it is like to play this game" and based on that, sorry...it's a minis game.

It's an introduction to D&D, and it's an introduction to 4E. Let's not get into semantics, but let's also compare it to introductory adventures that have come before. Where are all the RP rules in Keep on the Borderlands or Village of Hommlet or Sunless Citadel? To pretend that KotS is a paradigm shift in D&D intro adventures is to ignore the history of D&D intro adventures.

What are you asking for exactly? A dozen pages of rules to cover the intricacies of social encounters? Not that intricate social encounters are appropriate for an introductory adventure. The fact is most social encounters involve players asking questions, receiving responses, and evaluating those responses, and the module provides all the details you need to run those encounters.

An even handed response. Thank you.

You're welcome.

You are right. Good roleplayers can make ANYTHING a roleplaying game. I can make Hero Quest a role playing game. I can make Go Fish a roleplaying game (see my other post). Then again, I could make 3.5E a minis game. But does that make these games something they aren't? No. A game IS what it IS whether or not a creative person can bend it into somethign else.

A game is not a roleplaying game because someone roleplays. It is a roleplaying game because the system it presents supports and encourages roleplaying. The system I'm reading in the introduction that WotC has provided, does not do this. Oh sure, here and there they say "You could talk in a funny accent" but really, is that a system that embraces and encourages roleplay?

The mere fact that the adventure is more than just a sequence of fights, even if the stuff that isn't part of that sequence is overwhelmed by what is, is what makes it a Roleplaying Game. How in the hell do you see detailed tactical encounters and assume that they discourage roleplaying, anyway? To even get to a fight past the first two requires the players to engage with a number of NPCs, some of whom give incorrect information. One of them is a spy who will intentionally mislead the players. They'll have to evaluate this information, and decide on a course of action. Later on there is a fight that can be bypassed via role playing as well as some puzzles and out of combat problems to solve. Sure, there are a lot of fights, and they are best run using miniatures, but this is D&D we're talking about, and fights are a big part of D&D.