D&D 5E Yet Another Multiclassing Variant (Looking for Feedback)

[dmhelp]

After feedback from this thread I updated my house rules. Thanks!

 

[ardoughter]

I think you have added a lot of complexity to the multiclassing rules to create multiclasses that are more powerful than that available under the current rules.

 

[6ENow!]

Way too complex IMO. I would like to suggest an idea I've used in the past with a lot of success:

Second class as Subclass (or SCAS )
So, here is how it works:

When you gain your subclass, you gain the first level in a second class instead (just things listed on the class features table).
When you gain later subclass features, you gain two levels in your second class.
When you gain your next subclass feature, you gain two more levels in your second class.
When you gain your fourth subclass feature (or reach level 20), you gain the two final levels in your second class.
Note: Fighters don't gain their 5th subclass feature when multiclassing.

Example: Fighter multiclassing to Rogue.
Fighter at level 3 gains Rogue 1 features (again, everything on the class table, but no HP, no skills, etc.); Expertise, Sneak Attack (1d6), Thieves' Cant.
Fighter at level 7 gains Rogue 2 and 3 features; Cunning Action (no Roguish Archetype, of course), Sneak Attack (3d6).
Fighter at level 10 gains Rogue 4 and 5 features; ASI, Uncanny Dodge, Sneak Attack (5d6).
Fighter at level 15 gains Rogue 6 and 7 features; Expertise, Evasion, Sneak Attack (7d6).
Fighter gains nothing at level 18 if they multiclass (as noted above).

Anyway, I don't know if it will help with the issues you seem to be having or not, just throwing it out there for you to think on.

 

[Horwath]

Way too complex IMO. I would like to suggest an idea I've used in the past with a lot of success:

Second class as Subclass (or SCAS )
So, here is how it works:

When you gain your subclass, you gain the first level in a second class instead (just things listed on the class features table).
When you gain later subclass features, you gain two levels in your second class.
When you gain your next subclass feature, you gain two more levels in your second class.
When you gain your fourth subclass feature (or reach level 20), you gain the two final levels in your second class.
Note: Fighters don't gain their 5th subclass feature when multiclassing.

Example: Fighter multiclassing to Rogue.
Fighter at level 3 gains Rogue 1 features (again, everything on the class table, but no HP, no skills, etc.); Expertise, Sneak Attack (1d6), Thieves' Cant.
Fighter at level 7 gains Rogue 2 and 3 features; Cunning Action (no Roguish Archetype, of course), Sneak Attack (3d6).
Fighter at level 10 gains Rogue 4 and 5 features; ASI, Uncanny Dodge, Sneak Attack (5d6).
Fighter at level 15 gains Rogue 6 and 7 features; Expertise, Evasion, Sneak Attack (7d6).
Fighter gains nothing at level 18 if they multiclass (as noted above).

Anyway, I don't know if it will help with the issues you seem to be having or not, just throwing it out there for you to think on.

That is a neat idea, but problem is that various classes have various power levels of sub class features.

With your suggestion, paladins would jump to multiclass with anything.

 

[6ENow!]

That is a neat idea, but problem is that various classes have various power levels of sub class features.

A bit maybe, but when we've used it we never had any issue. It would be better if the classes had been designed with the idea in mind, but meh.

With your suggestion, paladins would jump to multiclass with anything.

They already can, so I'm not sure what your point is. Unless you mean about how strong the Paladin's core class features are comparatively to other classes? Which again, is an unfortunate side effect of this concept not being part of the design from the beginning. shrug

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I think many new rules consider dipping a class as a bug, while it actually isna feature.
If you compare it with ADnD style, if you multiclass wizard with fighter you are a few levels in spellcasting behind. As expected. And have some fighter features, as expected. This is what you get with a 2 levek fighter dip.

 

[Horwath]

I think many new rules consider dipping a class as a bug, while it actually isna feature.
If you compare it with ADnD style, if you multiclass wizard with fighter you are a few levels in spellcasting behind. As expected. And have some fighter features, as expected. This is what you get with a 2 levek fighter dip.

Yeah, I hate dipping.
But multiclassing is usualy bad choice outside few cheese builds.

my suggestion would be even split only with classes with bonus class levels at certain character levels.

I.E. 5th level multiclass fighter/wizard would have 3 class levels of fighter and 3 class levels of wizard.
the "dual" level would get middle ground HP of both classes (6+4)/2 in this case. And middle HD, d8 in this case.

every 3 levels from 5th you get one "dual" level, so at 20th level you end up with 13 class levels in both classes.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yeah, I hate dipping.
But multiclassing is usualy bad choice outside few cheese builds.

my suggestion would be even split only with classes with bonus class levels at certain character levels.

I.E. 5th level multiclass fighter/wizard would have 3 class levels of fighter and 3 class levels of wizard.
the "dual" level would get middle ground HP of both classes (6+4)/2 in this case. And middle HD, d8 in this case.

every 3 levels from 5th you get one "dual" level, so at 20th level you end up with 13 class levels in both classes.

You can do it that way for certain. 13 level seems like a good endpoint. You get hitdice and proficiency bonus for your actual character level I guess, so 3/3 even split gets 5d8 and proficiency bonus +3?

Probably you want your first dual level at 3, so you don´t lag too much behind for subclass:

1/0
1/1
2/2
2/3
3/3
-------
4/4
5/4
5/5
6/6
7/6
---------
7/7
8/8
8/9
9/9
10/10
----------
10/11
11/11
12/12
12/13
13/13

One thing I would do here is only giving one ability score increase at class level 4 -> so 3 from that.
So you jus need to give some extra at some character levels. Maybe on the other "jump" levels: 6/6 (character level 8) and 10/10 (character level 14)

 

[Horwath]

You can do it that way for certain. 13 level seems like a good endpoint. You get hitdice and proficiency bonus for your actual character level I guess, so 3/3 even split gets 5d8 and proficiency bonus +3?

Probably you want your first dual level at 3, so you don´t lag too much behind for subclass:

1/0
1/1
2/2
2/3
3/3
-------
4/4
5/4
5/5
6/6
7/6
---------
7/7
8/8
8/9
9/9
10/10
----------
10/11
11/11
12/12
12/13
13/13

One thing I would do here is only giving one ability score increase at class level 4 -> so 3 from that.
So you jus need to give some extra at some character levels. Maybe on the other "jump" levels: 6/6 (character level 8) and 10/10 (character level 14)

3/3 at level 5 is best IMHO as you get two 3rd level features to compete with 3+5 of single class. And it's beginning of tier2 gameplay so 1st dual level makes sense here. and you get 3rd dual level at lvl11(tier3) 5th dual level at lvl17(tier4) and final dual level on 20th level(instead of capstone).

And all classes are quite front loaded in first two levels, so I would wait a few levels before dual classing

as for HDs, 5th level fighter wizard could have 5d8 or 2d10, 2d6 and 1d8 if you want to be more precise. And that gives more combinations if you lack only few HPs during short rest.

 

[GlassJaw]

The power difference between single classed and optimized multiclassed characters bothers me. I think it also gets a little worse with every new rulebook that comes out (now TCE). I had been runnning a no multiclassing game but have been looking at other options to open things up.

In 95%+ cases, multiclassing is the poor optimization choice. You lose so much by multiclassing in 5E.

The optimal multiclass builds usually involve the paladin and warlock, maybe bard. Just monitor why the player wants to multiclass and you'll be fine. I would also argue that the "optimal" multiclass builds aren't all that amazing anyway.

 

[GlassJaw]

Way too complex IMO. I would like to suggest an idea I've used in the past with a lot of success:

Second class as Subclass (or SCAS )

I absolutely LOVE the idea of multiclassing as subclasses. I've been working on a similar system. I do think it needs a bit more tweaking as opposed to a standardized system but it's a start.

That is a neat idea, but problem is that various classes have various power levels of sub class features.

With your suggestion, paladins would jump to multiclass with anything.

As I said in another thread, "don't do it the bad way."

Again, it definitely needs some TLC to get it right but it can be done and it's an incredible elegant way to handle multiclassing.

 

[6ENow!]

I absolutely LOVE the idea of multiclassing as subclasses. I've been working on a similar system. I do think it needs a bit more tweaking as opposed to a standardized system but it's a start.

Me, too, I always thought it was an ideal way to handle MCing and any combination is possible. It would be better if subclass distributions were standardized...

I came up with the idea because of the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster. I mean, what are they really other than Fighter/Wizard and Rogue/Wizard? But, instead of class features for the subclasses, you get subclass features. shrug I just decided to switch them back.

 

[FrogReaver]

The power difference between single classed and optimized multiclassed characters bothers me. I think it also gets a little worse with every new rulebook that comes out (now TCE). I had been runnning a no multiclassing game but have been looking at other options to open things up. I've tried using the Gestalt/AD&D style multiclassing and it ends up being too lengthy for my taste. Here is another attempt at reigning in standard multiclassing thru a combination of 1 nerf & multiple buffs. Sorcerers don't gain the higher level spells known buff since Metamagic is inherently more tasty for multiclassing. I'm using the house rule where Four Elements disciplines use a bonus action instead of an action to cast. Thanks for any feedback!

• Multiclassed characters are limited to two classes and may not advance past level 10 in each class (i.e. eventually gets to 10/10 at level 20)
• Multiclassed characters gain an additional ASI at character level 4 (or when the decision to multiclass is made if at a higher level)
• Classes that gain Extra Attack gain it based on character level instead of class level (usually at character level 5 except for Bards/Wizards; Bladesingers also gain their cantrip as an attack ability at character level 6)
• Companions (dancing items, primal companions, wildfire spirit, etc.) gain hp based on character level instead of class level
• Bard/Cleric/Druid/Wizard - may know or prepare 2 spells from their class of any level that spell slots are available for (e.g. a 5/5 Cleric/Wizard could prepare 2 of their Cleric spells as spells up to 5th level and 2 of their Wizard spells as spells up to 5th level, the rest of their prepared spells could only be of up to 3rd level; a level 10/10 Bard/Paladin could know 2 Bard spells/Magical Secrets of up to 8th level, with the rest of the Bard spells being up to 5th level)
• Monk Four Elements - spell slots can be used to cast Elemental Disciplines as a bonus action (e.g. attack twice then burning hands with a spell slot since you are out of ki) and ki can be used to cast other known spells gained thru spellcasting or pact magic
• Warlock Invocations - require character level instead of Warlock level (e.g. Thirsting Blade requires character level 5 and Life Drinker requires character level 12)
• When leveling up one class, may also make changes to the other class (e.g. a Fighter/Warlock that gains a Fighter level may also swap out a Warlock spell and Invocation), this simulates the split class character as being of one mixed class instead of two classes

Example Multiclassed Characters vs Single Classed at Character Level 20:

• Barbarian/Fighter would have with level 1-10 Fighter abilities (Fighting Style, Action Surge, etc) vs single classed Barbarian would have level 11+ Barbarian abilities (1 more rage damage, unlimited rages, Primal Champion, etc); they both would have the same number of attacks
• Lore/Sorcerer would have 10 sorcerer points and 4 magical secrets (with only 2 spells up to 9th level) vs single classed Lore having 8 magical secrets and no limitation on spell levels

Weird. I view almost every single classed character as overall stronger than the multiclassed variations.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

3/3 at level 5 is best IMHO as you get two 3rd level features to compete with 3+5 of single class. And it's beginning of tier2 gameplay so 1st dual level makes sense here. and you get 3rd dual level at lvl11(tier3) 5th dual level at lvl17(tier4) and final dual level on 20th level(instead of capstone).

And all classes are quite front loaded in first two levels, so I would wait a few levels before dual classing

as for HDs, 5th level fighter wizard could have 5d8 or 2d10, 2d6 and 1d8 if you want to be more precise. And that gives more combinations if you lack only few HPs during short rest.

I don't think it is nice to get 2 subclass features at once. I think getting them one after the other is nicer.
On the other hand when other people get their 3rd level feature getting two classes' 2nd levels seems a good trade.
I actually though of letting people just start as 1/1 characters. Maybe you have to chose which one gets the first level proficiencies and which one only their multiclass ones. The increased power level does not matter too much, because neither class gets their signature features (which usually come at level 2 like smites and invocations). The best you can do is multiclassing warlock with sorcerer or bard ao you get both spellcasting features at 1st levels. But such little exceptions could be explicitely adressed. Maybe you can also adress the combination of heavy armor and spellcasting by ruling that you only get heavy armor at first level if both classes have them. You automatically get them at a later level (probably 2/2).

 

[BacchusNL]

Weird. I view almost every single classed character as overall stronger than the multiclassed variations.

Definatly true, atleast for most caster classes. Lagging behind on your spell levels is a big deal. A Bard might be tempted to pick up 2 levels of Hexblade for Medium Armor + shield, the Shield Spell, Eldritch Blast + Agonising Blast , Adv. on Concentration invocation and all that good stuff, but I wouldn't even consider it until I hit atleast lvl 10 for magical secrets (and then probably still go for lvl 11 bard first for lvl 6 spells).

Melee characters suffer a bit less from this problem and I've always felt that adding in Extra attack (2) at level 11 to all classes that get it at level 5 could sort out a lot there. I'm pretty sure Paladins, Barbarians and Rangers would stick with their classes a bit longer then atleast.

And then there is the fact that officially published material rarely moves past level 12 or so, which also incentivices people to focus more on the short term, rather then the late-game, gains. If a significant part of the game was played at lvl 20 (and some lvl 20 abilities weren't hot garbage compared to others) things would also look very different.

 

[FrogReaver]

The power difference between single classed and optimized multiclassed characters bothers me. I think it also gets a little worse with every new rulebook that comes out (now TCE). I had been runnning a no multiclassing game but have been looking at other options to open things up. I've tried using the Gestalt/AD&D style multiclassing and it ends up being too lengthy for my taste. Here is another attempt at reigning in standard multiclassing thru a combination of 1 nerf & multiple buffs. Sorcerers don't gain the higher level spells known buff since Metamagic is inherently more tasty for multiclassing. I'm using the house rule where Four Elements disciplines use a bonus action instead of an action to cast. Thanks for any feedback!

• Multiclassed characters are limited to two classes and may not advance past level 10 in each class (i.e. eventually gets to 10/10 at level 20)
• Multiclassed characters gain an additional ASI at character level 4 (or when the decision to multiclass is made if at a higher level)
• Classes that gain Extra Attack gain it based on character level instead of class level (usually at character level 5 except for Bards/Wizards; Bladesingers also gain their cantrip as an attack ability at character level 6)
• Companions (dancing items, primal companions, wildfire spirit, etc.) gain hp based on character level instead of class level
• Bard/Cleric/Druid/Wizard - may know or prepare 2 spells from their class of any level that spell slots are available for (e.g. a 5/5 Cleric/Wizard could prepare 2 of their Cleric spells as spells up to 5th level and 2 of their Wizard spells as spells up to 5th level, the rest of their prepared spells could only be of up to 3rd level; a level 10/10 Bard/Paladin could know 2 Bard spells/Magical Secrets of up to 8th level, with the rest of the Bard spells being up to 5th level)
• Monk Four Elements - spell slots can be used to cast Elemental Disciplines as a bonus action (e.g. attack twice then burning hands with a spell slot since you are out of ki) and ki can be used to cast other known spells gained thru spellcasting or pact magic
• Warlock Invocations - require character level instead of Warlock level (e.g. Thirsting Blade requires character level 5 and Life Drinker requires character level 12)
• When leveling up one class, may also make changes to the other class (e.g. a Fighter/Warlock that gains a Fighter level may also swap out a Warlock spell and Invocation), this simulates the split class character as being of one mixed class instead of two classes

Example Multiclassed Characters vs Single Classed at Character Level 20:

• Barbarian/Fighter would have with level 1-10 Fighter abilities (Fighting Style, Action Surge, etc) vs single classed Barbarian would have level 11+ Barbarian abilities (1 more rage damage, unlimited rages, Primal Champion, etc); they both would have the same number of attacks
• Lore/Sorcerer would have 10 sorcerer points and 4 magical secrets (with only 2 spells up to 9th level) vs single classed Lore having 8 magical secrets and no limitation on spell levels

The first test is how does a rogue/fighter compare to their base classes under your multiclassing rules throughout the game. A rogue 5/fighter 1 would have +3d6 sneak attack damage, get's an extra ASI, gets extra attack. That's much better than either a single class fighter or single class rogue. Your rules fail there IMO.

The next test is how they handle a bard/sorcerer or cleric/druid multiclass. Extra ASI, access to higher level spells. Many more spells to prepare. This is a sheer upgrade to level dipping caster classes up to level 11. As you are granting them no downsides in that range and an additional feat. I'd say your rules fail this test too.

 

[GlassJaw]

Me, too, I always thought it was an ideal way to handle MCing and any combination is possible. It would be better if subclass distributions were standardized...

I came up with the idea because of the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster. I mean, what are they really other than Fighter/Wizard and Rogue/Wizard? But, instead of class features for the subclasses, you get subclass features. shrug I just decided to switch them back.

Yeah, it really works best if the class level progressions are standardized so that all classes get subclass abilities at the same time. I've started working on that too.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yeah, I hate dipping.
But multiclassing is usualy bad choice outside few cheese builds.

Even then it's often a bad choice.

I've lost track of the number of people who thought a 1-3 level dip in Warlock would be good for their character, only to regret it at 5th level when the single class PCs get access to 3rd level spells (revivify, counterspell, spirit guardians, fireball, fly etc), bardic inspiration on a short rest, stunning strike, extra attack and so forth.

Ive never seen a MC character outshine a single classed PC. They have some tricks maybe, but so does the single classed PC.

 

[FrogReaver]

The only place I ever see a sheer gain in power due to multiclassing is survivability. But that survivability typically has some major tradeoffs.

 

[dmhelp]

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