You always hit!

[andy3k]

To be honest, as a player, the misses I hate the most are with my encounter powers since at-wills are repeatable and dailies often have "on miss" events. But I would probably never accept a punishment that hinders me more than the encounter power helps. I would never give up my next standard action, or accept the dazed condition, on purpose.

I can accept healing surge damage e.g. I strike out dangerously so the opponent gets a chance to wack me back. I can accept granting Combat Advantage e.g. I threw myself off balance to accomplish the shot or my weapon got stuck or whatever. No matter what kind of punishment you create, be sure to apply the tag "cannot be resisted or prevented with feats, magic items, special abilities, nadda".

Either an auto-hit with no possible crit OR a reroll of the attack with crit possible.

I would also not allow use of this unless ALL targets of a power were missed AND only 1 target may be hit by the power. Allowing a blast to auto-hit everything in its wake is seriously overpowered.

 

[CoarseDragon]

Forcing a miss into a hit would:

1. Grant Combat Advantage
2. Lose control of the weapon thereby dropping it the PCs square forcing them to pick it up on their next turn
3. This completely ends their turn, i.e. no rolling saves to end effects

 

[andy3k]

Option 3 is questionable. If attacking is my last action and I don't have anything to save from (or don't care about saving), then I lose absolutely nothing. Even at Epic level, this situation comes up fairly often. And if I have to give up a possible move for an auto miss, that is also a worthwhile sacrifice most of the time. The other two options hurt more and would make me weigh my options.

I say that Option 3 is a no-brainer more often than not so I'd take it off the table.

 

[Quickleaf]

Option 3 is questionable. If attacking is my last action and I don't have anything to save from (or don't care about saving), then I lose absolutely nothing. Even at Epic level, this situation comes up fairly often. And if I have to give up a possible move for an auto miss, that is also a worthwhile sacrifice most of the time. The other two options hurt more and would make me weigh my options.

I say that Option 3 is a no-brainer more often than not so I'd take it off the table.

What if it's not the player's choice?

I was thinking it would play out with the player saying "But I really want to hit this guy!" Then the DM chooses something appropriate to the narrative, "Sure, but after your assault on the burning balor you need a moment to shake off the scathing heat, and you don't get to save against the ongoing fire damage you're taking."

 

[andy3k]

If you don't tell the players that you are instituting this new feature, it will work exactly once. After the first time, they will know how the feature works and will use it more wisely in the future. It is a one-shot option that will work for one person once. It's not worth putting it on your list of options.

Also ... D&D is about knowing your options and choosing the tactics you prefer with expected results. Players don't really like surprise effects of actions that they choose. I, for one, would get peeved if I missed the chance to move and make a save roll when I really wanted to, even if it meant hitting instead of missing. Of course, there are people out there who don't care about anything but landing that blow and not wasting an encounter or daily power ... but none of MY table top group would choose to lose a move and save, especially if we were in a particularly vulnerable position or low HP.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I like the no-miss idea, but I always have trouble working in crits and "dodges" (e.g.: quick enemies or characters who SHOULD be evasive), since I always want to get rid of the attack roll and streamline the thing...

Seems like you're going to keep the attack roll, though, and have them "pay a price" to hit. Which is neat.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6674918]andy3k[/MENTION] Yeah it is a very steep penalty. Would either "your turn ends as if you'd charged" OR "you don't get a save" work? Losing a move and/or a minor action makes sense. The saving throw is more subjective I guess.

I like the no-miss idea, but I always have trouble working in crits and "dodges" (e.g.: quick enemies or characters who SHOULD be evasive), since I always want to get rid of the attack roll and streamline the thing...

Seems like you're going to keep the attack roll, though, and have them "pay a price" to hit. Which is neat.

Yep. If a player choose to hit a quickling, for example, they might get zoomed along with the quickling on it's next move in a gust of feywild magic...possibly provoking opportunity attacks from other quicklings along the way.

 

[andy3k]

Offers combat advantage and ends turn like a charge would be a good combined payment and makes sense. Tell the players this option exists. If they never use it, the price is too steep.

If you lower the price to only one of those and not both then they'll probably use it all the time and unbalance the game. On the other hand, you could increase the level of all your encounters by 1 or 2 to offset the extra hits they'll be making.

 

[RLBURNSIDE]

I like it

I'd say turn all encounter powers into a semi-reliable "if you miss, you either do 1/2 damage + status effects or you don't lose the power, but grant CA UEONT and your turn ends either way". That way, if your encounter power was used to get the status effects, it still works but with less upfront damage, like many Wizard encounter powers. In exchange, for wizards, make their encounter powers that aren't already 1/2 on a miss, that + grant CA.

People hate more losing all effects AND damage AND their turn, than just a simple miss, IMO. And in a PF game I play in, they use crit and fumble cards which are way fun. Maybe give the players all an action point AND a luck card, which gives a +5 to a roll you just missed. Max 1 luck card, and you regain those when you crit, kill an opponent, come up with a clever idea, a funny situation, please the gods, or whatever else floats your boat at the gaming table.

In fact I like this so much, I will probably use something similar in a Dark Sun 4e game I'm planning to DM. Yay, fun! Trust me, those pathfinder crit cards that give out extra delibitating effects on crits and fumbles are a HIT at the gaming table, and make for more fun encounters. Isn't that the whole point? Not to make it auto-win, but take away some of the grind, tedium, and maybe add some spice and excitement to those classes that basically just deal damage.

Have a pre-made deck of random "Luck cards", each with an exchange. Do you use it, or not? Let's say at the start of combat, each PC gets one such card at random. When they use it, and kill a foe or crit, they get another one, and so on. At the end of combat they all go back into the deck. Add more and more new effects and trade offs and keep the players on their toes. The luck cards should always turn a miss into a hit + do something else (e.g. slow, daze, drop your weapon, cost you a bit of damage, temporarily blind you from the blood in your eyes, etc). or a chance to not expend your power, grant CA and end your turn (option B).

+1

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=94650]RLBURNSIDE[/MENTION]
While I'm hesitant at making 4e even more like a card game, I really like your idea to use "you hit, but..." cards.

You also got me thinking about ways to incorporate action points into the card deck idea. Or maybe this house rule can replace action points completely?

An afterthought: This house rule devalues reliable powers, so I'd steer players away from taking those, or let those powers be turned into hits without any backlash.