D&D 5E (2014) You Cant Fix The Class Imbalances IMHO

[Tony Vargas]

If you can name me an edition other than 4e where the wizard wasn’t the strongest class at max level, I’d love to hear it.

TBH, I'm not so sure wizard isn't a good candidate for that in 4e, either. Ever run for a Sage of Ages?

 

[Scribe]

If you can name me an edition other than 4e where the wizard wasn’t the strongest class at max level, I’d love to hear it.

That still isn't a trope. While it may be a system reality, I'm not sure it's a codified trope.

 

[Oofta]

If you can name me an edition other than 4e where the wizard wasn’t the strongest class at max level, I’d love to hear it.

Define "strongest". Most HP? Best AC? No. Averaging damage (barring mass damage from something like meteor storm where you can target large numbers) over more than half a dozen encounters without a long rest? Debatable. Most skilled? Nah, that goes to the bard or rogue.

Powerful? Yes. Strongest? Depends on campaign and assumptions about what you care about. It just depends and the judgement calls are likely subjective, at least in 5E.

 

[strawbellebelle]

Short for Adventurer Conqueror King System. An OSR game just getting its second edition via Kickstarter, which opened today and funded in less than 15 minutes. Emphasis is on a lot of modular systems and the re-introduction of the domain game, all of it meticulously researched and playtested. It is my absolute favorite RPG.

I like how when I looked this up, one of the first things that set it apart from the D&Ds it takes inspiration from was a female-only "blatant fanservice" character class.

 

[ECMO3]

If you can name me an edition other than 4e where the wizard wasn’t the strongest class at max level, I’d love to hear it.

Generally Wizards (Magic-Users) were not the most powerful characters in AD&D 1E, even at high level.

High level martials could could do a ton of damage in one round regularly once weapon specialization and high level magic items became available and their THAC0 was so low this was nearly automatic. It was rare that PC Magic-Users could cast the high level spells to match this.

Magic-Users were weakened in 1E by magic resistance and the fact saving throws were easy to make at high level. Something like Feeblemind for example is very powerful, but a high level fighter only needs a 7 to save. Less if he had a 15 or better Wisdom or any kind of magic items that boost saves and a Wizard casting such a spell in combat is very vulnerable to being attacked.

There were high level spells like Wish and Power Word Kill that did not give saves and those are as powerful as 5E contemporaries, however few PC Magic-Users could cast these spells because they lacked the required intelligence score. In 1E you rolled abilities and they never increased. So you had to roll an 18 intelligence at 1st level and even if you got extremely lucky and rolled an 18 you still had a 15% chance of not being able to learn a particular spell.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I like how when I looked this up, one of the first things that set it apart from the D&Ds it takes inspiration from was a female-only "blatant fanservice" character class.

He's said several times it was based on something his wife wanted to play. But feel free to focus on those first impressions. Or better yet, how about the actual game?

 

[James Gasik]

He's said several times it was based on something his wife wanted to play. But feel free to focus on those first impressions. Or better yet, how about the actual game?

Are we talking about the Bladedancer? They sound like Monks to me. I guess Wuxia = "fanservice"?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Are we talking about the Bladedancer? They sound like Monks to me. I guess Wuxia = "fanservice"?

It seems that way, especially if you don't look past the surface and take unpleasant assumptions with you.

 

[mamba]

Logic and reason would suggest that experience players who choose to play fighters do so because they like the class design. Otherwise they would choose a different class.

in that case logic would also consider them part of the 54% that like it

I am not satisfied with Druids, Barbarians or Artificers and as a result in 10ish years of 5E I have only played 1 Barbarian, 1 Artificer and no Druids, while I have played a dozen Rogues and Rangers or more and multiple examples of every other class except Paladin (I have only played 1 Paladin).

and this would presumably be reflected in your satisfaction rating

 

[Tony Vargas]

If you can name me an edition other than 4e where the wizard wasn’t the strongest class at max level, I’d love to hear it.

Technically 1e didn't have a max level. I mean, it did for, like Druids, Assassins, Monks and non-/demi-humans of most classes...
...but not magic-users, you hit Arch-Mage, got 9th level spells, and kept going...

Generally Wizards (Magic-Users) were not the most powerful characters in AD&D 1E, even at high level.

At high level, like 11th, they started being called Wizards, so that's fine. At max level? Their last level title was Arch-Mage at 18th, the spell/day chart went up to 27th. 29th, excuse me.

High level martials could could do a ton of damage in one round regularly once weapon specialization and high level magic items became available and their THAC0 was so low this was nearly automatic. It was rare that PC Magic-Users could cast the high level spells to match this.

Ironically, the highest DPR specialization options at low level (TWF, which in 1e meant daggers or hand axes; or bows) didn't work so well at high level, for want of the most powerful magic weapons (which were mostly longswords, and the fabled Hammer of Thunderbolts).

LFQW: The magic-user could cast low level spells. 1d6/level, no limit for the ol' bat guano & sulphur. Even magic missile hurt at high levels.

Magic-Users were weakened in 1E by magic resistance and the fact saving throws were easy to make at high level.

Saving throws were funny, since little the caster could do would make them harder, so high level enemies just, why?
Not nearly everything was save:neg, tho.
High level casters actually weakened Magic Resistance, it went down if you were higher than 11th.

There were high level spells like Wish and Power Word Kill that did not give saves

There were also low level spells with no save.
3e broke save DCs, making SoD the go-to OP option for casters and epitomizing rocket tag. But don't think that not having untouchable save DCs much held back 1e casters.

and those are as powerful as 5E contemporaries, however few PC Magic-Users could cast these spells because they lacked the required intelligence score. In 1E you rolled abilities and they never increased.

Your ability scores could definitely increase. There were items that did it permanently or while you had the item, you'd encounter environments that did. Some DMs liked that more than others and, like, don't write anything about your character in pen.

So you had to roll an 18 intelligence at 1st level and even if you got extremely lucky and rolled an 18 you still had a 15% chance of not being able to learn a particular spell.

For whatever reason, the INT table in the PH(1978) went up to 19.

1e was pretty screwy and inconsistent.

But there was a reason the Circle of Eight were all wizards.