D&D 5E You can't necessarily go back

[triqui]

And believe it or not the people watching Game of Thrones are a miniority - ratings high of 4.2 million for the most recent season finale.

I don't know how much RPG books are bought, but I'd dare to say that 4 milllions of 5e PHB sold would make WotC damn happy...

 

[Emerikol]

I was rereading "Worlds & Monsters" last night. Besides being reminded that it is one of the better DMG books ever produced for D&D, I also noticed that, in one of the desinger blogs reproduced at the end (I think Bill Slavicsek), they said that they anticipated that most 3PPs would support 4e henceforth. Oops! - that's a prediction that failed to come true.

There were two reasons that I can see.
1. The GSL forbade an OGL activity alongside.
2. Many small press guys had owners who honestly hated 4e.

I think in Paizo's case it's mostly #1 . It was also a bitterness in their mouths over dragon and dungeon. I think this because I do think Paizo is business minded whereas other smaller presses may lead with their hearts.

 

[D'karr]

how many 3+ year 4e campaigns have you seen?

Seen? Quite a few actually. I have 2 going on right now.

Interestingly enough of some of the ones that I've seen, several are at Paragon Level and are still going pretty strong.

In every previous iteration of rulesets play never got past low teens because it was unmanageable at that point.

 

[D'karr]

This is one of those statements like "4e is deadlier than 3e" that is completely untrue on its face.

Yeah, all those things that you stated would seem to make 4e rather survivable. Interestingly enough I've had more PC deaths with 4e than with any other version of D&D combined, and I've been running games for a very long time.

The fact that the characters have better survivability does not mean that the game can't be gritty.

 

[Emerikol]

Yeah, all those things that you stated would seem to make 4e rather survivable. Interestingly enough I've had more PC deaths with 4e than with any other version of D&D combined, and I've been running games for a very long time.

The fact that the characters have better survivability does not mean that the game can't be gritty.

If you didn't cheat as DM, I seriously doubt you could stay within RAW and seriously challenge my group. During the year I played D&D, I found myself exceeding RAW all the time just to create a challenge for them. And yes I know you can add advantages via terrain and I did do that some. But it get's old if it's overdone. Even then it rarely really made much of a difference.

 

[Emerikol]

Seen? Quite a few actually. I have 2 going on right now.

Interestingly enough of some of the ones that I've seen, several are at Paragon Level and are still going pretty strong.

In every previous iteration of rulesets play never got past low teens because it was unmanageable at that point.

I'm sure all editions have their players at all levels. From what I saw higher levels were just number adjusted versions of lower levels. I only played to the end of heroic tier and that was enough for me and my group. I found the game to be unrealistic, dissociative, and boring. But of course, YMMV and probably did. .

 

[Obryn]

The only way that 4e is less gritty is when DMs hand out wands of cure light wounds like candy (which hasn't happened in any 3e/Pathfinder game I've ever run in).

Hand them out? You mean "when someone spends a feat on it"?

I mean, I agree with the basic point - 4e is less gritty, and this is by design. But wands of cure light wounds aren't some crazy thing that a DM throws at the players - they're a crazy thing the players are perfectly capable of doing on their own, using just the basic rules in the core books.

how many 3+ year 4e campaigns have you seen?

3+? Dunno, but that's a little bit dirty pool considering the edition was only released 4 years ago. (And paragon tier was rather broken until 2-1/2 years ago). I have a Dark Sun campaign that's been going strong for 2 years right now, and certainly has enough potential to go 2+ more.

Right now, that's longer than my 3.0, 3.5, Star Wars Saga, or WFRP2 campaigns, and it's about tied with my CoC d20 and Arcana Evolved campaigns. (The former only ended because some of my younger players graduated, and the latter sputtered out due to AE's intensely broken spellcasters after 10th level or so.)

I'm sure all editions have their players at all levels. From what I saw higher levels were just number adjusted versions of lower levels.

Number-wise, that's true, and again by design. However, the capabilities of the PCs broaden continually, their abilities become vastly more effective, the threats they face are trickier, and the nature of the campaign changes if the DM is any good. (Heroic is "save the town/village," Paragon is "save the kingdom," Epic is "save the world" is how it's explained.) It's actually a lot like Next proposes to be; bounded accuracy is just 4e math with the treadmill turned off.

Further editing, re: challenging the PCs. MM3 math helped a lot. That's why, up above, I called Paragon tier basically broken until MM3. Also, because as I mentioned PCs' capabilities broaden, L+0 generally ceases to be as meaningful by upper Heroic. You tend to need at least L+1 at low paragon, L+2 at mid- to high-paragon, and L+3 or more at Epic for a baseline. I am not saying this is good; it's a flaw in the design, but it's at least closer than CR/EL.

-O

 

[Tony Vargas]

I have to say that if that is accepted as a fair assessment (and it has been) then I agree with the scepticism. Fighty McFighter's skills with a sword aren't going to be as useful in a game of political intrigue or a detective game as Scry McDiviner the Wizard or Rapit Stolenname the rogue.

Nod. But, that doesn't have to result in imbalance if the Fighter also had balanced abilities in each of the other two 'pillars.'

4e is a d20 game.

Yes, it is in the sense that it uses d20 vs DC as a core resolution mechanic and has a great deal of mechanical similarity to other d20 games. But, in another sense, it's not: It doesn't use the OGL. It doesn't have an SRD you can use to play it. It's not part of the open-source d20 universe.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Thanks for the reply. The point you were/are making is clear to me, though I personally haven't found this to be a big issue - despite being described by some of those who don't play it as being balanced on a razor's edge, I find 4e very forgiving of these sorts of variations.

Compared to other D&D editions, sure. Compared to game without daily resources, not nearly so forgiving. :shrug: I was only making a point about the nature of pegging resources to 'days' or player-controlled 'rests,' not specific editions. (I think that's what I was talking about in this instance, anyway...)

 

[Argyle King]

Yeah, all those things that you stated would seem to make 4e rather survivable. Interestingly enough I've had more PC deaths with 4e than with any other version of D&D combined, and I've been running games for a very long time.

The fact that the characters have better survivability does not mean that the game can't be gritty.

Conversely, my experience with 4E is that I've only had 2 PCs of mine die. Both were a result of misunderstanding how diseases were supposed to work combined with mummy rot.

I'm happy for people who have had other experiences. Having fun is good; I don't begrudge anyone for it. From my side of the table;for some reason -possibly a failing of my own; I don't deny the possibility-I've had difficulty getting the experience I want. Strangely, this is in spite of 4E having a lot of elements which -in isolation- I actually like.

As a player, I've gone 1-30 a few times, and I've had only the two deaths mentioned above. As a DM I've gotten different results, but only after sitting down and tinkering with the nuts and bolts of the system. While I feel that the last game I ran went very well, it went well because (as alluded to elsewhere) I chose to embrace the gonzo nature of the game instead of going with what I had originally planned. I had an amazingly fun time running that game. However, I still feel as though -with 4E- I've never really gotten a chance to run the style of game I'd like to run.