D&D 5E You can't necessarily go back

IME virtually no one takes either of those skills. Charged and use-limited magic items are complicated, weak, and not cost-effective (healing wands being pretty much the lone exception, and even then being of limited use at best). Use Rope is a niche skill, if you're going to be in places that facilitate it.

Personally, I find that Spot/Listen and Knowledge skills outweigh everything else.

Wow, really?

By about 5th level, with a 10% investment of his wealth, never mind the rest of the party, the wizard can craft/buy about 30 scrolls of each level that he can cast. Certainly easily done by 7th.

Bang out a couple of wands of this or that and you've got a pretty much endless supply of very, very useful spells and the casters memorize nothing but offense and defense.

Even with a lack of down time, this doesn't actually take much time. It's a pretty rare campaign that doesn't have three months of down time in five levels. What is winter for after all? Day here, day there, it all adds up.

How much time passes in game for the group to gain a level? How long is a campaign generally in game time? My campaigns tended to span years. Travel by ship means tons of downtime for crafting, as one example. I've never found it particularly compelling for a group to zoom through ten or fifteen levels in a single game year.
 

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Wow, really?

By about 5th level, with a 10% investment of his wealth, never mind the rest of the party, the wizard can craft/buy about 30 scrolls of each level that he can cast. Certainly easily done by 7th.

Bang out a couple of wands of this or that and you've got a pretty much endless supply of very, very useful spells and the casters memorize nothing but offense and defense.

Even with a lack of down time, this doesn't actually take much time. It's a pretty rare campaign that doesn't have three months of down time in five levels. What is winter for after all? Day here, day there, it all adds up.

How much time passes in game for the group to gain a level? How long is a campaign generally in game time? My campaigns tended to span years. Travel by ship means tons of downtime for crafting, as one example. I've never found it particularly compelling for a group to zoom through ten or fifteen levels in a single game year.
The last campaign I ran was a group on the run through the wilderness that had almost zero down time. The one before that was based around a keep and had loads of down time (but still no one crafted items). The current not-really-a-campaign game that I'm running is another run through the wilderness with no down time.

Stylistically, I tend to try to focus a campaign on the most action-packed part of the characters' lives. My overall sense is that most people with levels in adventuring classes gain those levels over a relatively short period of time, and then retire, like professional athletes. Most magical items are sold by retired wizards, retired fighters become landowning nobles, rogues take over thieves' guilds, etc. If you go by the book (which I don't, though my results tend to be similar), the 3e rate of advancement is 13.3 encounters per level. That means that fighting an average of one per month would get to to 20th level before middle age (and that's just for a human, let alone an elf). Obviously, this doesn't actually happen, because most career adventurers do not reach anything close to 20th level. So I tend to assume that an adventuring career is a fast-burning flame.

I also tend not to have my PCs in urbanized areas, and I don't assume they have easy access to supplies.

But the bigger issue with item creation I think is that they don't want to be sitting in combat with a feat on their character sheet devoted to scribing scrolls. They've been taught to live in the moment. My group also has always had a preference for non-casters, and they typically play themed casters when they play one and are not really min/maxing the utility spells. It's hard to explain why; that's just how they are.

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As to how much time passes in gaining a level, I'd say it's typically a couple of weeks in-game of high-pressure adventuring amounting to two or three combat encounters and various other hijinks. I don't track in-game time closely, but I'd say my last campaign, which ran levels 1-8, was probably a few months in-game (with one long break that was spent on a ship getting back on course after a teleporting accident). My next one will be very different, but then again they all are.

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Again, I find it interesting that item creation is such a big point of difference between groups. It's probably one of the major differences between 3e and 2e (which IIRC doesn't have the same kind of rules for PCs to do it). I suspect that the average 3e game includes no item creation by the PCs, but the reports of what happens when the rules are used (and abused) suggest to me that it's a part of the game that needs serious rethinking. I also am not a big fan of the wand/staff items as being simply charge holders with crappy spells; if anything a wizard's staff should be considered an "implement" (which is one of the few 4e-isms I think at least conceptually makes sense).
 

IME virtually no one takes either of those skills. Charged and use-limited magic items are complicated, weak, and not cost-effective (healing wands being pretty much the lone exception, and even then being of limited use at best). Use Rope is a niche skill, if you're going to be in places that facilitate it.

Personally, I find that Spot/Listen and Knowledge skills outweigh everything else.

UMD is not limited to charged and limited use items. As someone who has admittedly abused the rules which come with the skill, you can quite literally B.S. items into working for you -items which normally would not. Don't have the required ability sword to use the BBEG's flaming sword of death? No problem! You just tell the sword that you do have the required sword, and the best part is that it believes you.

I'm also quite fond of Nystul's Marvelous Pigments; they don't even require UMD. You simply need to have skill at painting.



Personally, I would prefer a style in which 'mundane' equipment was more useful. Unfortunately, my experience with D&D (I'm mostly familiar with 3rd and 4th) has shown me that it typically isn't as useful as other options.
 

UMD is not limited to charged and limited use items.
No, but my group (including myself) typically is fine with just selling stuff we can't use and using what we can. Given that magic items of all types are very DM-dependent (as to whether they appear in the game), skill ranks invested in UMD are really a big risk.

OTOH, anyone in my games knows that any Knowledge skill they take is going to be used frequently (regardless of whether they are good at it or not), and if they fail a check it can really matter. Makes for a wise investment, if not as rewarding of one. Same for Stealth/Perception skills (athletic and charisma skills are a little more dependent on player initiative). Also worth noting that I do background skill points that can only be used for things like Knowledge and Profession.

Personally, I would prefer a style in which 'mundane' equipment was more useful. Unfortunately, my experience with D&D (I'm mostly familiar with 3rd and 4th) has shown me that it typically isn't as useful as other options.
Agreed.
 

No, but my group (including myself) typically is fine with just selling stuff we can't use and using what we can. Given that magic items of all types are very DM-dependent (as to whether they appear in the game), skill ranks invested in UMD are really a big risk.

That may have something to do with the fact you don't craft items...
 


Well, yes, that was kind of the point. My players, like their characters, generally have no idea whether they will ever get the opportunity to do that, and are best served by assuming not.

No. The point is that your players, like their characters don't know if they will get the opportunity to create massive and highly effective force multipliers for low cost and therefore don't bother trying. They don't even try from what you've said. Ever. When crafting a wand of Cure Light Wounds only takes a day (not even that for an Artificer) and is very, very effective.
 

No. The point is that your players, like their characters don't know if they will get the opportunity to create massive and highly effective force multipliers for low cost and therefore don't bother trying. They don't even try from what you've said. Ever. When crafting a wand of Cure Light Wounds only takes a day (not even that for an Artificer) and is very, very effective.
More importantly, they also know that if they abused those rules rather than using them, I'd change the rules. So they don't bother trying.
 

More importantly, they also know that if they abused those rules rather than using them, I'd change the rules. So they don't bother trying.
But what is abuse of the rules? Making a wand of Cure Light Wounds? Making the occasional wand of low level spells is precisely what the rules are there for. And is well worth a feat and a few XP. It's also a gamechanger.
 

But what is abuse of the rules? Making a wand of Cure Light Wounds? Making the occasional wand of low level spells is precisely what the rules are there for. And is well worth a feat and a few XP. It's also a gamechanger.
Making a wand of CLW is hardly abuse, I agree. Some of the tricks I've seen online for turning a ridiculous profit or duplicating/spamming things are abusive. I'm not an expert on magic item creation abuse, but it can definitely be done.

I guess I don't really see it as being a game-changer, though, in my style. By the time you're high enough level to craft such a wand, any decent healer can completely heal the party anyway. The wand of CLW only becomes a game-changer if a party faces several battles in a game day that are challenging enough to drain resources without having the opportunity to rest and regain those resources, which in and of itself is a stylistic choice (and one that runs contrary to many of the base assumptions of the game; all kinds of things get wonky if you do that). Rarely happens in my games. I don't know that my current party has any wands of CLW, even though they are in a really ideal position to use them (high level, only spellcaster is a ranger, and my health system and magic rules probably increase the value of those wands).
 

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