You don't like the new edition? Tell me about it!

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Which threads are you talking about?

Exactly. I see many "I hate 4E" threads. Each of them have the same people spouting the same things. Where are all of these supposed "4E Roxxors!!!!1111oneoneone!!!!" threads?

Links please?

Edit: Oh, you probably mean all the threads where people are rationally discussing new features of the game.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Two things I dislike related to 4E:

1) People labeling new design as "stupid" because it isn't what they are used to and they lack the imagination to explain how it may now work. (e.g. Healing Surges are NOT Regeneration. The designers may have chosen poor terminology, but it is no stretch for me to envision a Healing Surge as that burst of energy heroes get when the going gets tough and allows them to press on when normal people would fall. What's that called again? Oh yeah... a Second Wind.)

2) That the ENWorld moderators haven't merged all of these redundant "What I hate about 4E" threads. Because it's cluttering up the boards and is really just the same people saying the same things over and over and over...

I do not see pointing out lazy, and overly hamfisted game design decisions to be an indicator of a lack of imagination. Lack of imagination is creating a rule that makes no sense (even in a fantasy world) and stating the reason for said rule as "just because". Just realize that for those of us with doubts that people screaming " 4E is teh sex" before it is even fully tested can be a tad annoying too. Actual massive playtesting will begin on June 6. If 4E achieves the balance that it was striving for then at least there will be a somewhat decent tabletop minis game. If not, then 4E will have absolutely nothing going for it because they sacrificed all manner of flavor to arrive at this "'balance".

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Second wind, like in SWSE, fine. I actually kind of like it. But enough times a day to recover fully at least 2x your max hit points without any magical assistance? Gimmie a break. It's not lack of imagination that doesn't make that work for some of us.

If the rule doesn't work for you that's one thing. But please don't insult those of us who like the idea by mockingly calling it Regeneration. A well-reasoned statement that you believe characters are given too many healing surges per day for your tastes is much preferred over mockery.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I do not see pointing out lazy, and overly hamfisted game design decisions to be an indicator of a lack of imagination. Lack of imagination is creating a rule that makes no sense (even in a fantasy world) and stating the reason for said rule as "just because". Just realize that for those of us with doubts that people screaming " 4E is teh sex" before it is even fully tested can be a tad annoying too. Actual massive playtesting will begin on June 6. If 4E achieves the balance that it was striving for then at least there will be a somewhat decent tabletop minis game. If not, then 4E will have absolutely nothing going for it because they sacrificed all manner of flavor to arrive at this "'balance".

But everyone's point of reference is past editions of the game. Gary Gygax and others created a set of arbitrary rules that reflected what they thought reflected a fantasy game. Others came along and had to use their imagination to take that set of rules and make it "the way things work" in this new fantasy world. Other RPG creators came along and created their own vision of "the way things work" in a fantasy world (e.g. Earthdawn had healing surges, at-will magic, everyone has 'powers', etc.). Now the 4E team has created "the way things work" for a brand new game. That's right - brand new. And I for one am glad that a new edition is a new game, because I wouldn't want to buy a rehash of the same old thing.

 

[ExploderWizard]

But everyone's point of reference is past editions of the game. Gary Gygax and others created a set of arbitrary rules that reflected what they thought reflected a fantasy game. Others came along and had to use their imagination to take that set of rules and make it "the way things work" in this new fantasy world. Other RPG creators came along and created their own vision of "the way things work" in a fantasy world (e.g. Earthdawn had healing surges, at-will magic, everyone has 'powers', etc.). Now the 4E team has created "the way things work" for a brand new game. That's right - brand new. And I for one am glad that a new edition is a new game, because I wouldn't want to buy a rehash of the same old thing.

I agree 100%. 4E might be very successful as a brand new game and the rules could run very smoothly. It's the D&D part that it fails at.

 

[Turanil]

If the rule doesn't work for you that's one thing. But please don't insult those of us who like the idea by mockingly calling it Regeneration. A well-reasoned statement that you believe characters are given too many healing surges per day for your tastes is much preferred over mockery.

Obviously, what you don't like about 4e is simply that some people don't like it, and, oh the odious lack of politically correctness (!), even make fun of it!

Well, obviously this thread is not for you. Why don't you just ignore it, as much as I ignore the threads that rave about 4e? (or at least don't post negative comments in them.)

 

[Aaron]

No trip.

No disarm.

No grapple.

Wasn't this the "more options edition"?

 

[el-remmen]

Exactly. I see many "I hate 4E" threads. Each of them have the same people spouting the same things. Where are all of these supposed "4E Roxxors!!!!1111oneoneone!!!!" threads?

Links please?

Edit: Oh, you probably mean all the threads where people are rationally discussing new features of the game.

Which still doesn't explain the reason why you feel the need to come into this one and post it when it obviously bothers you so much and you cannot stick to the spirit of the thread the OP was trying to foster.

Ignoring a thread is (or at least should be) easier than crapping in it.

And I say that as both a mod and poster.

Thanks.

 

[cwhs01]

No trip.

No disarm.

No grapple.

Wasn't this the "more options edition"?

Not really the entire truth here is it?

Disarm is gone, correct, unless a GM allows it with the stunt mechanic as explained in the dmg.

Grapple is in, but simplified.

Trip is in, but mostly done with specific powers or the stunt mechanic.

But these three mechanics won't be the basis for fighter archetypes as they were in 3e.

Oh, and non-casters DO have more options than ever before. The options for casters have been nerfed bigtime, especially druids (obviously...) and clerics. I think it balances out.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I agree 100%. 4E might be very successful as a brand new game and the rules could run very smoothly. It's the D&D part that it fails at.

I believe that it fails for you in the D&D part.

As an example, el-remmen has described what kind of things he likes from his D&D game. For me, they don't sound like the D&D I played, and I would want to play. Maybe my D&D is not the "True D&D", but what I prefer to think is that D&D can be different things to different people. It matters which edition they "grew up" with (if you can grow up with something at the age of 20) and they had the most fun it. (And if they never had fun it, they probably think of D&D as something bad and the bane of all good role-playing, and play Vampire or Das Schwarze Auge... )

And 4E so far doesn't fail to be D&D for me. But it might very well fail for you or el-remmen at being D&D.

(And why am I posting this in the "anti 4E" thread? Because I want to force everyone to accept and admit that his understanding of D&D is not the only true form, damn it! )