D&D 5E You encounter 20 orcs ...

[Flamestrike]

Yeah, that is my most likely problem in my specific adventure. If the players go to the Shrine of Savras directly after Mountain Toe’s Mine, they will be level 4, not 5.

Quick summary of the PCs abilities please? Number and class.

And do you have anyone with GWM or SS?

And do any casters have Sleep?

 

[Shiroiken]

Haven't played this either, but my group is slowly learning tactics.

Find a way to create a choke point. Sure there's 20 of them, but if that big Ogre gets there first, you only have to fight ONE (at a time). Until some Orc in the back remembers their bow and arrows...

This is what I was wondering. Terrain makes all the difference in a combat, if used properly. If the PCs are smart, they can try to lure the enemy to a location where their superior numbers won't matter as much. This can be a ravine, gully, bridge, or even a stand of trees (this one is much harder). Even if the enemy has ranged attacks, they'll have cover shooting past the orcs, and I'd definitely give 3/4 cover if shooting past the ogres. Toss in a few control spells, and this can be a brutal fight for the orcs.

If the players just fight them in an open field, they'll have to run, die, be very lucky, or cheat.

 

[LordEntrails]

At that moment, the Stone Cold Reavers mercenary company came charging from off the side, launching ahead of the PCs. The orcs, caught off guard, focused surely on the faction charging at them. Sensing this as an opportunity, the PCs made their way past the carnage.

Then again, that is if you change the Stone Cold Reavers from a four/five party band into a small mercenary company. I feel that would work better in making them more of an antagonistic force.

IMO, bad idea. The DM might as well be playing with themselves. So now the DM not only controls 20 orcs, but another 10? NPCs?

And if the players win, then they don't feel that they won. Instead the mercenaries won, with a little help from the PCs.

Yea, not the way I think players want this to go.

 

[Weiley31]

IMO, bad idea. The DM might as well be playing with themselves. So now the DM not only controls 20 orcs, but another 10? NPCs?

And if the players win, then they don't feel that they won. Instead the mercenaries won, with a little help from the PCs.

Yea, not the way I think players want this to go.

The idea is that the chaos in the situation could be used in the party's face. Plus the majority of the "clash" would be in the background.

Plus just cuz the PCs are the PCs, DOESN'T mean the world completely revolves around them. That Dragon cares little of them and is just find and dandy doing its own thing til some stupid adventurers decide to get involved. Which they do.

 

[dave2008]

depends how you play it. Or how they play it/you.

One fireball and battle is over

No one has fireball at 4th level though.

 

[Weiley31]

No one has fireball at 4th level though.

Except the Level 4 Fireball. It ALWAYS has a fireball.

 

[Harzel]

Hi there! I am currently DMing the 5E Essentials Kit adventure Dragon of Icespire Peak for a group of 5 players. In that adventure there is one encounter [SPOILER WARNING] called Shrine of Savras in which the group encounters "4 orcs per characters plus 3 ogres", if they are level 4 or level 5. So for my 5-player group, that would be 20 orcs. Furthermore, unless the players attack at night (which isn't an obvious strategy, because several of them don't have darkvision), the encounter says that there is no way for the group to approach without raising an alarm from the guard orc on the tower and encountering all those orcs and ogres at once. Even if the characters sneak in unseen, all the orcs and ogres except for one guard are in the same location, so there is no easy way to fight them separately.

Now my group isn't overly specialized in area of effect damage spells. I have three melee characters and two spellcasters. So apart from the problem of an encounter with 23 enemies taking bloody forever, I also seems very deadly to me. Already the total xp of the orcs and ogres would qualify the encounter as "deadly" for a level 4 group, and that is without taking into account the "adjusted XP" formula for groups of enemies.

Has anybody here either run this specific encounter, or has experience with 5E combat involving such large numbers of enemies? I have the feeling I need to tweak this; but then, what is an encounter that isn't really playable as written doing in a D&D starter set? Am I just imagining things, and my players are going to cut through those 20 orcs and 3 ogres like a hot knife through butter? Or are my tingling DM-senses correctly warning me of a design problem?

Others have given some good advice already; I'll add one observation. I don't think there is a design problem (in terms of number/type of opponents) so much as a presentation problem - particularly this bit.

If the orc spots the characters, it cries out, rousing the shrine’s other occupants. Once roused, all those occupants attack.

This pushes the DM in the direction of thinking about the orc/ogre response as an organized mass attack. Admittedly it doesn't explicitly say that, but it's certainly the picture that pops into my head when I first read it. However, in case the orcs/ogres are roused, not only does having them come in waves give the PCs a fighting chance, it's the thing one would normally expect from a bunch of orcs and ogres; they are not going to be a well-organized fighting force.

I continue to be underwhelmed by the WoTC team's writing and presentation skills.

The other thing that others have said, but which I think deserves emphasis is that to make this fair, the DM should foreshadow the number and type of opponents within the compound. And as with other info presented to players, subtle is not the way to go - you pretty much have to club them over the head with it. (At least that's what it will feel like to the DM; to the players it will seem like a vague hint.)

There are lots of ways to hint at the quantity of opposition in this encounter; obvious ones include signs of the denizens comings and goings on the trail approaching the location, and just flat-out seeing them wandering outside the premises. (The latter despite the very static scene implied by the description in the module.)

Good luck!

 

[shadowoflameth]

Level 5 is pretty low for that many enemies. Yes, a fireball could take out several but you're likely only going to get one of those off. martial types may get two attacks and if you have two in the party, even if they get two kills each you're likely to still have half the enemies left to attack you before you can do anything else.

 

[Ashrym]

Hi there! I am currently DMing the 5E Essentials Kit adventure Dragon of Icespire Peak for a group of 5 players. In that adventure there is one encounter [SPOILER WARNING] called Shrine of Savras in which the group encounters "4 orcs per characters plus 3 ogres", if they are level 4 or level 5. So for my 5-player group, that would be 20 orcs. Furthermore, unless the players attack at night (which isn't an obvious strategy, because several of them don't have darkvision), the encounter says that there is no way for the group to approach without raising an alarm from the guard orc on the tower and encountering all those orcs and ogres at once. Even if the characters sneak in unseen, all the orcs and ogres except for one guard are in the same location, so there is no easy way to fight them separately.

Now my group isn't overly specialized in area of effect damage spells. I have three melee characters and two spellcasters. So apart from the problem of an encounter with 23 enemies taking bloody forever, I also seems very deadly to me. Already the total xp of the orcs and ogres would qualify the encounter as "deadly" for a level 4 group, and that is without taking into account the "adjusted XP" formula for groups of enemies.

Has anybody here either run this specific encounter, or has experience with 5E combat involving such large numbers of enemies? I have the feeling I need to tweak this; but then, what is an encounter that isn't really playable as written doing in a D&D starter set? Am I just imagining things, and my players are going to cut through those 20 orcs and 3 ogres like a hot knife through butter? Or are my tingling DM-senses correctly warning me of a design problem?

The reason the party cannot approach in the day by stealth is because there is no concealment. They will be seen because of it. That can be resolved by invisibility if the party can cover it, or possibly a magical or mundane disguise. Then the light doesn't matter.

Night allows concealment because the moon is overcast that night and the party can use stealth at that point unless they carry a light source.

If the party can learn the schedule of the inhabitants then plan the attack when they are sleeping. It doesn't matter night or day as long as the party can better enable surprise. These monsters cannot be awake 24/7. If the party can plan for a time the monsters are sleeping they might be able to take out the guard by ranged attack, or invisible assassination. No alarm raised. That depends on how the adventure is progressing.

Fireball isn't an auto win even if the group did have it. The area is huge and spread out, and divided into four quadrants. The ogres are in one corner so starting the attack in the opposite corner starting with orcs even on a full assault would leave 1-2 rounds for the other orcs to move to the PC's and a bit more for the ogres. Or start with the ogres as the orcs move in. There is some time to work with in this case.

Fireball (or other AoE) only works if the party can gather all the opponents close enough together, and even then it won't drop the ogres, or the orcs (on average damage) if they save. 2 fireballs won't drop the ogres. If a person wants to try that method then the entrance to the courtyard is probably the chokepoint to use iirc. A large group lured together that takes 2 fireballs if the party lasts long enough to launch both would be devastated.

You might want silence instead to keep the noise of battle from attracting opponents from other quadrants.

More on the party would be helpful.

 

[J-H]

"Bring out your best soldier to fight me! If he defeats me, we will become your slaves. If I defeat him, you will become OUR slaves!"
(Goliath, as paraphrased by the version of the Bible that my 3 year old likes best)

Warning, if the party acquires an orc tribe as minions, prepare for a derail of Awesome. Also, where are the orc women and children? 23 minions becomes 45 minions...