You Wanted Character Themes, You Got 'Em - Dragon 399 ToC

[Kinneus]

These themes feel vague to me, like I'm having trouble pinning down just what a theme *is*.

I much, much prefer these 'vague' themes to overly-specific themes. Themes should be loose and open-ended, something additive for your character that helps better define its place in the world. Super-specific stuff like "Templar" is fine for campaign-specific themes, but stuff like "Alchemist" or "Ordained Priest" or "Explorer" works with tons and tons of character classes and personality types... which is perfect, because that is exactly what themes have to do in order to work in core 4e.

Would you really rather have "Golden Wyvern Adept" as a theme? Specific themes that come with a lot of 'RP baggage' only compounds the porblem of PCs picking powers for mechanical benefit over fluff.

The problem with making every theme super unique with lots of tasty plothooks is that you either need A) tons and tons of themes to give everybody enough choices that don't conflict with their character or B) be prepared to have awkward situations with three people in the party picking "Last Surviving Member of the Ancient Teljaco Clan" as their theme, or having the pacifist cleric of Pelor pick "Syphilis-Riddled Libertine" as his theme for mechanical reasons.

 

[WotC_Huscarl]

I'm slightly annoyed that the updated cleric is behind the pay wall.

That pay icon was an error. It's been removed. The cleric article will be free, just like the previous installments.

Steve

 

[CasvalRemDeikun]

That pay icon was an error. It's been removed. The cleric article will be free, just like the previous installments.

Steve

I see the Order Adept is back in the Heroes of Nature and Lore article. I was quite concerned when I saw that it was missing.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=48215]Kinneus[/MENTION] That was a great response to the idea of narrative vagueness vs narrative specifics...

In case you missed it, my post actually was about *design space* vagueness leading to confusing/arbitrary overlap. Hence my silly examples.

Background, race, class, paragon path - these all have distinct roles in defining a character. You're probably not going to confuse a background for a class, for example. Themes are a bit stickier.

At first blush themes independent of setting are rather amorphous beasts. "Templar" and "escaped slave" make sense because they describe a character's social status in a brutal hierarchy and they provide an extra boost in a low-magic setting.

But what does "explorer" have in common with "alchemist" to justify belonging together as themes?

 

[Mummolus]

But what does "explorer" have in common with "alchemist" to justify belonging together as themes?

Look no further than history - you had princes, criminals, merchants, scholars, and soldiers all acting as "explorers" at various times.

Similarly, just about anybody could practice alchemy.

That's what themes embody - something that transcends class.

 

[Quickleaf]

Look no further than history - you had princes, criminals, merchants, scholars, and soldiers all acting as "explorers" at various times.

Similarly, just about anybody could practice alchemy.

Was this supposed to be rhetorical bait and switch? I mean I was totally agreeing with you about the haphazard (and greed-motivated) nature of exploration, and then you make a claim about alchemy being historically accessible to the common man/woman... That's just...I don't know what to say...

That's what themes embody - something that transcends class.

You mean like race or background or alignment right?

 

[Mummolus]

Was this supposed to be rhetorical bait and switch? I mean I was totally agreeing with you about the haphazard (and greed-motivated) nature of exploration, and then you make a claim about alchemy being historically accessible to the common man/woman... That's just...I don't know what to say...

From Isaac Newton to priests to Chinese Emperors. It's not quite as all-encompassing as "explorer" but certainly a wide range of people historically gave alchemy a try.

You mean like race or background or alignment right?

Yes and no. I've said elsewhere that I think in some ways themes are what backgrounds should have been, but they're more than that, too. I like to use gladiator as my example - you could have a dragonborn battlemind fighting a halfling monk in an arena. They're completely different races and classes, but they're both gladiators nonetheless.

 

[GameDoc]

I wonder if they're going to have rules for a theme's interactions with non-AEDU classes, specifically the ones without selectable encounter powers. My one problem with the Dark Sun themes is that they don't play very nicely with Essentials classes like the slayer.

Or maybe we'll have to wait for June's multiclass/hybrid rules update.

I was wonering the same thing. Particularly given that E-classes lose some customization, it'd be great if themes allowed you some opportunity to flesh them out.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Some rules about multi and hybrids for Essentials would indeed be nice. In all I think WOTC shot themselves in the foot with the non-daily Essentials classes, as they are turning into such a headache for people wanting to use ALL of the content WOTC has put out.

Having a single encounter that the character uses an increasing number of times is not really a big hurdle.

As for Essentials and themes(assuming Dark Sun style themes, here), let them get the basic encounter form the theme, and replace their encounter and utilities as normal. Sure, they miss out on the daily switch, but that is the price they pay for having better at-wills and class abilities (assuming one believes they are equal to traditional classes, of course)

It is not really a problem at all. Essentials classes can use themes just fine, except for a couple missing out on daily choices, which they did once the player chose that character in the first place.

 

[IanB]

You mean like race or background or alignment right?

Not necessarily. In character terms, they're quite different. Race is who you are, background is what you were, alignment is how you act. To take it further, I would perhaps think of theme as what you do and your class as how you do it.

Narratively they're reasonably distinct, although I expect the design we actually get as they scramble to get these things out to blur the lines a bit.