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Your choices are Kill, or ... Kill

I think what's needed here is a bit of a paradigm shift.

The OP explicitly said he thinks the existing combat system as we know it works fine for equal or more powerful foes.

If you're dealing with someone who is vastly less powerful (the possessed mayor) and has no real chance of hurting you, why bother pulling out the combat system? Just treat it like a noncombat encounter.

Perhaps the GM decides that subduing the mayor safely will take 5 successes before 3 failures, or whatever. The fighter says, "I try to pin him to the ground with Athletics," and rolls, perhaps getting a success. If he fails, the GM might say, "Filled with unnatural strength, he throws you off, visibly straining himself beyond human limits," and so on.

The more failures before the successes are racked up, the worse condition the mayor will be in. And if the group fails outright, the mayor either dies or escapes, or whatever.

P.S. I could imagine a more freeform version of 4e that eschews the battlemat entirely, just by treating even full-blown combat encounters using the "noncombat" system. I'm not advocating this necessarily, it's just an interesting thought. I like what we've seen of the noncombat system very much.

Having certain powers would simply determine how easy a check (against Arcana for spells, say) you have to make, and would also naturally affect how you would describe what you're trying to do. Daily powers would probably give a hefty bonus, while at-will power might have a penalty.
 

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Just Another User said:
Just hit them harder than you can, then, after they go down, check on them, if they are important to the plot they will be still alive, if they are not, screw them. After all, they are just NPCs, for gawd's sake.

I distinctly recall taking prisoners in X-Com using plasma cannon (as I had poor damage rolls with those quite often). Apparently, they were missing significant chunks of their body from where they'd been hit, but there was enough there to vivisect afterwards.

More seriously (and relevant), apply the death and dying rules to appropriate NPCs. You can beat them down and then stabilize them and start asking questions. Or just go all hongian and say instead of being down/dead they're on the ground with a sword at their throat.

Brad
 

#4 is the only thing that really bothers me so far based on what I've seen. (I had similar issues with previous editions, including 3E, btw, to some extent.) I was hoping to see something about saving throws that involved needing a higher save based on level. This might end up being something that I house rule after I try it out a few times. Provided, of course, that there's not something in the ruleset that we haven't seen. :)
 

Kahuna Burger said:
Against an equal or higher level foe, sure. But the OP explicitly addressed that. There's no particular need to be "fair" with how you deal with someone that the PCs could kill outright but don't want to. Fair in that case is having options.

If we're talking about an innkeeper, he's got like 2 hp. Just smack him over the head bare-handed and knock him out with nonlethal damage. (Or grab him and tell the DM you're pinning him to the ground, and let the DM adjudicate a Str vs. Athletics check or whatever.)

On the other hand, "nonlethal" fireballs seem stupid to me. I'd house-rule that only certain magical damage types (maybe psychic and force?) can be turned nonlethal.
 

ZombieRoboNinja said:
If we're talking about an innkeeper, he's got like 2 hp. Just smack him over the head bare-handed and knock him out with nonlethal damage. (Or grab him and tell the DM you're pinning him to the ground, and let the DM adjudicate a Str vs. Athletics check or whatever.)

On the other hand, "nonlethal" fireballs seem stupid to me. I'd house-rule that only certain magical damage types (maybe psychic and force?) can be turned nonlethal.

I am wondering how you handle it if you don't want to hit them over the head. A non violent way to handle the situation. Like grabblig or disarming? Has any one read how this is going to work.

Also what about if it is not a mook and is the same level or little higher or lets say it is a PC has anyone see or read rules on how to bring them down without beating on them? Sure you can use non lethal damage on them but they can also fight back and do lethal damage to you. In my 3.5 games hwne we had to do this we used disarm, tripping and grappling to bring down a possessed PC.

I have to agree non lethal fire balls sounds really dumb how can fire be non lethal? I can buy non lethal magic missles and lighting bolts because they do force damage. A lot like say the Zata on Stargate Sg 1.
 

ZombieRoboNinja said:
On the other hand, "nonlethal" fireballs seem stupid to me. I'd house-rule that only certain magical damage types (maybe psychic and force?) can be turned nonlethal.
Well, I agree, but then abstract "you might not have actually taken any damage" fireballs seem equally stupid. ;)

Hrm, a non lethal fireball - a flashburn so sudden and intense that it doesn't do anything but surface damage to people or objects, but temporarily burns off all the oxygen and leaves you gasping and seeing spots? Heat exauhstion instead of burns?
 


Elf Witch said:
I am wondering how you handle it if you don't want to hit them over the head. A non violent way to handle the situation. Like grabblig or disarming? Has any one read how this is going to work.

Also what about if it is not a mook and is the same level or little higher or lets say it is a PC has anyone see or read rules on how to bring them down without beating on them? Sure you can use non lethal damage on them but they can also fight back and do lethal damage to you. In my 3.5 games hwne we had to do this we used disarm, tripping and grappling to bring down a possessed PC.

I have to agree non lethal fire balls sounds really dumb how can fire be non lethal? I can buy non lethal magic missles and lighting bolts because they do force damage. A lot like say the Zata on Stargate Sg 1.

My guess is that you can describe it as the ability to vary the heat level of the fireball (making it very hot but not burning, so enough to make someone pass out), or even allowing the effect of sucking all the air out of an area from the fire without any heat effect from the fire (which would also make someone pass out).
 

Plane Sailing said:
Of course, the way things are phrased can help matters - if the original poster started off by expressing his post as a question for discussion rather than a statement of percieved failing... it would almost certainly have resulted in a higher degree of interesting distinction and a lesser degree of condemnation and justification!
I wish that were true. But I really doubt it.
 


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