D&D General Your thoughts on "Social Combat" systems

[Campbell]

I like games like Apocalypse World, Dogs in the Vineyard, Exalted Third Edition, Masks, and Monsterhearts that model social interaction in some way. Modeling it in the same way as combat is pretty damn fraught in my personal experience.

 

[Tonguez]

This leads into high and low charisma. You don't need to make any checks for an NPC to evaluate that the way you present yourself is charming or off-putting. A noble is going to engage in a conversation with a 20 charisma character much more differently than a 8 charisma character without even accounting for dice rolls..

But then how do you account for the beautiful jerk (Gaston in Disneys Beauty and the Beast) or the ugly poet (Cyrano)? Gaston might be an 8 personality even if he is physically handsome and athletic, whereas the Hunchback of Notre Dame was ostracized for his appearance, such that a noble isnt going to give him audience, yet he may have a noble soul.

So for me I like Social Hit Tracks
Roll cha to determine starting disposition
describe situational aspects (Hunchback, Heroic, plays guitar)
And roleplay for bonuses

 

[Dragonsbane]

Every NPC interaction has some sort of Persuade/Intimidation/Deception/Charisma check in my game which influences (but does not always decide) the direction of the NPC RP. I know from the rolls which way to take it, and my table wants the skills to mean something. Did you fool the guard? RP should be robust, but the roll can help decide the end result.

 

[Asisreo]

But then how do you account for the beautiful jerk (Gaston in Disneys Beauty and the Beast) or the ugly poet (Cyrano)? Gaston might be an 8 personality even if he is physically handsome and athletic, whereas the Hunchback of Notre Dame was ostracized for his appearance, such that a noble isnt going to give him audience, yet he may have a noble soul.

Gaston has a very high Charisma score. Everyone loves him in his town except for a few people. They sing about how they want to be him and he knows exactly how to call attention to himself. Charisma isn't about being polite, kind, or a good person; its about being able to grab and keep people's attention.

Quasimodo is uncharismatic partially because of his looks but also because he sucks at talking to others since all he's done his entire life is speak to 1 human and 3 gargoyle before Esmeralda.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

The Audience system from AiME is a good example of a well-made Social combat system.

1) One PC introduce the group with a DC 15 check. The NPC has a starting reaction to the group which improves by 1 step if this check is a success.

2) The group roleplays the encounter. Each NPC has Motivations (what they want) and a list of Expectations (what the PC can say to influence them). Leveraging expectations give bonuses or maluses to the final roll.

3) When the encounter comes to an end, one PC makes a check against a DC based on the group starting reaction, adding or substracting the bonus from previous steps.

Generally Favoured DC 10
Generally Friendly DC 11
Generally Neutral DC 12
Unknown DC 13
Askance DC 13
Mistrustful DC 14

The compare the results on the NPC outcomes table:
Failed: X
Success: Y
Success by +1 to +3: Z
Sucess by +4 and more: K

 

[EpicureanDM]

In my 10+ years of RP experience, though I really appreciate the sentiment, I have found that social systems like these simply fall flat.

What social conflict systems have you tried in your 10+ years of experience? How exactly did they fall flat, and why?

 

[cbwjm]

I don't think I'd want a system more detailed that what's in the DMG. That plus roleplay does more or less all I need. Come up with a good idea in the social interaction and the player has advantage, totally mess things up and you have disadvantage.

 

[Quickleaf]

So what are your thoughts? Have you found any social combat or social mechanics that you think were a true boon to the RP experience?

Yeah, Rich Burlew wrote a hack for the Diplomacy skill in 3rd edition. It was a nice way of getting a feel for some depth without a lot of extra mechanics. Unfortunately, the original link isn't working, but there is an article on the Alexandrian describing it: The Alexandrian - Advanced Rules - Diplomacy

Basically, he redefined Diplomacy as "the art of the deal" (not "making friends"), with two modifiers: (1) your relationship, and (2) the quality of the deal you were offering.

5e D&D merged both those ideas in the NPC tables defining DCs for Charisma checks according to whether NPC is hostile/indifferent/friendly. But I actually think Rich's solution is more "true to actual play" in how players approach Diplomacy and gives a richer feel to the narrative.

 

[Umbran]

So what are your thoughts? Have you found any social combat or social mechanics that you think were a true boon to the RP experience?

Social conflict systems that are just tacked on are always disappointing. If it isn't going to be as integral to the game's design as other conflict resolution, they'll always be lacking.

I take Fate as a comparison here, which recognizes no notable mechanical difference between physical and social conflict resolution, and therefore handles the social end seamlessly.

 

[loverdrive]

I love the hell out of Fate and its conflicts, but for D&D I've just ported Parley move from DW and it works well too.