Your thoughts on warlocks

[devilbat]

One of my long time players decided to try out the Warlock class for our latest campaign. He loved the idea and design of the class, but after reaching fourth level, he has been bothered by how he sees the class as a "one trick pony". In the end, he says, it all comes down to the Eldritch blast.

From a DM's mindset, I can see how some may find that the blast is a little excessive. Each blasts damage isn't overpowering, but the fact that he can use it every round tends to make mince meat out of the opposition.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I don't see it. I've got a pretty good list of the creatures my party has faced from 3rd level on and the (CL/2)d6 of the warlock doesn't really pose a threat. Sure, he can do it all day, but that's moot if he gets killed.

At low levels, a strength bow averages more damage and range (1d8+3 = 2d6). Getting eldritch spear is equivalent to the cost of rapid shot, so again the two remain equal. At mid levels (4d6-6d6 EB) the archer gets iterative attacks, their BAB creeps a few points higher than the warlock and starts adding magic weapon/ammo to the mix.
At the top levels (7d6-10d6 EB) the archer is making 4-5 attacks/round, has about an 8 point BAB advantage between fighter levels and magic gear, probably doing d8+d6+8 (str+magic) per shot (avg=16) which means only 2 have to hit to compare to the 35 average of a 10d6 EB.

This isn't even a focused archer, it's just a fighter who spends 2-3 of his feats on ranged combat and gets decent gear. The fighter could also be a 2-weapon "blades of fury" type with lots of melee potential that equals out the warlock's "half-mage" status.

IMC the main fighter gets 7 melee attacks a round, the monk is a blur of fists, and the archer manyshots to get what amounts to autocrits. 30-50 pts of damage/round is typical from them. A warlock of equivalent level will throw 9d6=>31 pt EBs that may have some minor side effect that will have an affect over time (sickened, fear, etc) but rarely lets the warlock alone end the fight.

I like warlocks, as a player for the flavor and as a DM because they are useful but not overpowering. No one will mock a warlock for being a weenie class but anyone who sees one won't really be amazed at its raw power.

The *ONLY* time I can see a warlock being a far advantagous class over the others is the same monks shine: you have no gear and little time to rest. Warlocks are great for wars, so-so for battles. Casters are grat for battles, so-so for wars. The Warlock dribbles out damage over a long period of time vs. the briefer, but more intense, explosions that come from casters.

If you run less than 2 encounters a day, the warlock will not show their strength b/c the casters can toss their much more damaging spells with abandon. At 4 encounters a day the casters will be struggling at the end or have declined to participate in the first fray. More than 4 encounters a day and warlock will stand like an arcane beacon.

Check your play style. Do you see more than 3 encounters per game calendar day? No? Warlock has no advantage. Yes? If played well it will make a difference.

 

[ARandomGod]

Ok a couple of points:

The power ARandomGod is refering to is the Utterblast power which is one of the top tiers powers of the Warlock class. The subject needs to make a fort save or gain two negative levels that disapear in one hour, this invocation is supposed to be equavilent to an eighth level spell. The earliest a Warlock could chose this power is 16th level.

Actually, that's only one of the ones I was referring to. The other was the bewitching blast. I didn't actually see the Utterdark blast played more than a few times... the character was 'retired' (I wasn't the GM) because the GM thought it was just too much.Bewitching blast is still a mid level power, I agree. But still, it can be long ranged or area of effect AND comes on top of damage. Plus it's a ranged touch attack at 3/4 BAB. A wizard will miss his touch attacks much more often. True, it gets a save. And for someone who isn't maximizing his DC's that might be a limiting factor. Practically noone and nothing of the appropriate level could make the save against this guy. And we were in a pretty big party, so the enemy could be substantially bigger.

 

[Nail]

Practically noone and nothing of the appropriate level could make the save against this guy.

I suggest this is the problem, rather than the class.

That is: it would be interesting to look over this guy's character sheet. How, exactly, did he get his DCs so high? And what house-rule magic did he have to use to do it?

 

[satori01]

ARandomGod, thanks for posting, I appreciate the input. As Wesley once said to Inigo Montoya, " please know I hold you in the higest regard".

Ok, down to buisness. 3/4 bab and ranged touch attack does mean the Warlock will hit pretty much every time he or she uses her Eldritch Blast, under the right circumstances. This is not a Bad Thing(tm) in my opinion as the Warlock will be able to hit the super high AC monsters like dragons, with low touch ac, dealing a trickle of damage,(assuming they penetrate SR), while the rest of the party can get the bless and other buffs up to hit AC 30. This is the Warlocks strength.

Now pit that same Warlock against a Ghost Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist with good dex, good wisdom, high Deflection bonuses, high bonus AC due to wisdom, and cleric Protection from good/evil, Shield of Faith etc and you will see the Warlock at his or her worst. Warlocks have no way of dealing with incoporeal creatures, useless in terms of Eldritch Blast, without a little help from their friends, turining them etherial, etc.

Warlocks against High Dex or high Deflection, dodge AC characters will miss quite a bit more often, which can often be vexxing to Warlock players used to have ridiculosly low ACs to go against.

As for the Bewitching Blast, this is a greater power, first accesible at 11 level. This means a Warlock selecting this Invocation is not selecting the Evards Black Tentacles power,(see my post above for this signifigance ). The Save DC for this Invocation is a Will save of 10+5( total invocation level) + cha modifier, those failing the save will be confused for one round, and only one round.
Now due to the Warlocks level his or her Eldritch Blast is overall considered a 5th level spell. I can understand on a surface level how a DM might consider an infinetely usable 5th level spell that is a range touch attack that deals 6d6 dmg per hit with a chance to confuse an enemy for one round, overbalancing.

Until you look closer. Tanks will do more damage on average, Spellcasters will have more powerful spells, that either do more HD damage or will be save or die effects, rogues have 6d6 sneak attack damage which under the right circumstances will really add up.

Even the "lowly" bard can out due the Warlock in terms of easily defusing an encounter. A 11th level bard can Facinate up to 4 creatures, setting a Will Save DC= equal to his perform check,(at 11th level at least a +14 from skill ranks alone). With this accomplished the bard can then one at a time give each monster a Suggestion for free, and of course the Bard can do this a minimum of 11 times per day, which for my opinion essentially translates into at will.

For my money an 11th level Bard can be more encounter breaking then an 11th level Warlock using Bewitching Blast.

 

[ARandomGod]

I suggest this is the problem, rather than the class.

That is: it would be interesting to look over this guy's character sheet. How, exactly, did he get his DCs so high? And what house-rule magic did he have to use to do it?

It wasn't that bad. Human race. Twelfth level character. Started with an 18 (+4), level boosted it to 20 (+5), spent a lot to get a +6 to charisma item (+3 more), took a feat to increase spell like ability DC by 2... It was only +10. I think the spell (invocation) was a sixth level one... (this would have to be checked). So I believe the Bewitching effect was a DC 25 will save. Which is nice for a 12th level character, and wouldn't have been a problem at all if not for the fact that he could throw that once per round, it was in addition to his damage that round, and it hit multiple opponents each round. He never ran out!

 

[ARandomGod]

Warlocks against High Dex or high Deflection, dodge AC characters will miss quite a bit more often, which can often be vexxing to Warlock players used to have ridiculosly low ACs to go against.

Not any more often than a mage, which is where I compare the two. However warlocks have absolutely nothing to get them out of a grapple. All their invocations specifically require somatic components. Including the DDoor one. They've got a weak spots. They have an invocation to turn their blasts to acid, overcoming SR... but of course then they're not using the thing I personally saw as a problem! And what about SR acid resist/immune targets?

Even more importantly, how often is he going to encounter one of those?

As for the Bewitching Blast, this is a greater power, first accesible at 11 level. This means a Warlock selecting this Invocation is not selecting the Evards Black Tentacles power,(see my post above for this signifigance ). The Save DC for this Invocation is a Will save of 10+4(invocation level) + cha modifier, those failing the save will be confused for one round, and only one round.

True, only one round. I thought it was compared to a sixth level power, not fourth... hence why they got it as 11th level (when characters are getting access to sixth level spells).

Now due to the Warlocks level his or her Eldritch Blast is overall considered a 5th level spell. I can understand on a surface level how a DM might consider an infinetely usable 5th level spell that is a range touch attack that deals 6d6 dmg per hit with a chance to confuse an enemy for one round, overbalancing.

I think they've errata'd this. It's considered a first level as a pure EB, or the highest level of the invocation(s) used to alter it.

For my money an 11th level Bard can be more encounter breaking then an 11th level Warlock using Bewitching Blast.

Possible. He'd certainly be more versitile. I woudn't know, I've actually never seen the bard in play. However this character was 12th level and the rest of the party was 13-15, and throught the course of play everyone thought he was "way to powerful". And even I had to agree in the end, although the only real issue I had was the bewitching blast's incredible effectiveness. A cone of mass confusion (even if it's only for one round, it's still every round he attacked) and damage.

Anyhow. We also saw the Chilling Tentacles. I thought that they were powerful, but they weren't overly so, if only because the GM tended to find ways to limit the character's ability to use them (no point casting them in area's where the PC's are, etcetera).

 

[ARandomGod]

Until you look closer. Tanks will do more damage on average, Spellcasters will have more powerful spells, that either do more HD damage or will be save or die effects, rogues have 6d6 sneak attack damage which under the right circumstances will really add up.

Don't forget that he can apply an invocation to 'chain' the blast to hit up to three targets, or he can make it into a cone effect... there are other shapes too.

 

[satori01]

Yeah it sounds like your Warlock was using an Eldritch Chained Bewitching blast, and had the Ability Focus feat, allowing him at that level to Arc his blast to another enemy within 30' of the orginial, for half damage,(the Bewitching save remains the same).

Not to shabby. Of course a bard with Skill Focus Perform and the same gear would have a Facinate DC of 25 before rolling a d20 for his check.

 

[satori01]

Don't forget that he can apply an invocation to 'chain' the blast to hit up to three targets, or he can make it into a cone effect... there are other shapes too.

Cone is a Greater Invocation which, at that level a Warlock only has one of. Bewitching is also a Greater Invocation, so a 12th level Warlock can chose either Bewitching or Cone area effect. 15th level is the earliest a Warlock can arc to 3 enemies.