Your thoughts on warlocks

[Krelios]

The issue is that since the abilities are usable at will, a DM is not going to be prepared for every instance where the warlock is going to use (or abuse) the ability regardless of his experience.

There are not that many abilities at a warlock's disposal. It's not unreasonable at all for a DM to consider their impact on adventures s/he creates.

An experienced DM is not someone who lets players do everything that sounds fun and flavorful and just assumes that he'll just whip a solution for every situation on a case-by-case basis.

I have to disagree. I am confident that I can let my players have fun within the rules for their classes and I will have a solution on the spot on a case-by-case basis. That's called DMing.

I also have to question the notion that abilities which for the most part just mimic wizard spells can be considered non-traditional solutions.

Wizards/Sorcerers can use their spells in unexpected ways the same way a Warlock can. Just because it's on a list that's existed forever doesn't mean players can't be creative with it. I was simply accepting the premise put forward earlier that Warlocks can surprise DMs with unorthodox tactics for the sake of my argument.

 

[JoeBlank]

I too am interested in the idea of the warlock, but I also worry about the one-trick-pony situation, and how the DM would deal with this. It seems to me that a good DM will let the PC have his fun, and get to use his abilities fairly often. If others are right, then this might mean that the warlock PC overshadows the others a little. But sometimes the DM will need to plan to counter the warlock's abilities, maybe to make an encounter work. Without much to fall back on, the warlock may feel useless in these encounters. I guess he could still blast away, same as a fighter who just keeps hacking.

As an example, I'm currently playing a sorcerer in City of the Spider Queen. The make the adventure work, certain types of magic had to be limited. For example, teleport does not work well, if at all, in many parts of the underdark. Other forms of magic are hindered. But my sorcerer has enough alterntatives that he can fall back on spells that do work, and come up with creative solutions. I wonder if a warlock would have enough alternatives available to him to continue to be a fun PC in this sort of situation.

 

[Felon]

There are not that many abilities at a warlock's disposal. It's not unreasonable at all for a DM to consider their impact on adventures s/he creates.

The DM not only has to plan for the quantity of abilities a character has, but also the quantity of uses. If a warlock is inclined to charm every NPC the party encounters, how do you deal with that every time it happens? If the warlock can turn every battlefield into a morass of black tentacles, how do you deal with that every single time it happens?

Now folks, I'm pretty sure I can't reach Krelios--I know "glib dismissal mode" when I see it--but when he issues his blithe, vague response of "oh, there's a thousand different ways for a good DM to deal with it", realize that is actually what we're talking about. It certainly will feel like a thousand.

Also, remember that ultimately, you actually have to allow the warlock to get away with some of the exploitive ways that he uses his abilities. After all, from his point of view, you allowed the class--why deny him his mischief?

I have to disagree. I am confident that I can let my players have fun within the rules for their classes and I will have a solution on the spot on a case-by-case basis. That's called DMing.

No, that's called self-delusion. You are not some enlightened higher being in touch with the zen of DMiing that allows you to flawlessly predict and resolve all possible outcomes of a given situation. You are just a normal, fallable schlub with a finite ability to anticipate what others will do.

 

[Felon]

The main problem for me isn´t how I will scale the adventure but if the other characters will feel threatened and deminished by the Warlock´s power. I took a second look on the class today and as Felon wrote - there are some Invocations that could spoil the fun but that are concerns I have whenever someone plays a high lvl caster anyway.

I wouldn't worry about anyone feeling threatened our outgunned. A warlock isn't much better than a wizard with a wand or two (no actual spells, mind you, just a wand or two). The eldritch blast can be considered to be a glorified wand of scorching ray. Feeling annoyed and aggrivated is the issue they're more likely to have.

 

[brehobit]

I think everyone else covered most of the issues, but let me add/hightlight a few.

As far as 1-diminsional Warlocks go, keep in mind they can use scrolls and wands very effectively starting 2nd level or so. If you have a "magic store" kind of world where scrolls and wands can generally be purchased or built then this can add a lot of flexibility. You have to be wiling to blow the money on things like this, but it is clearly worth it for the warlock.

Their power relative to other casters really depends upon the number of encounters per day. If your norm is <3 per day, they will feal a bit weak. At 5+ per day they will feel quite strong. Further, at mid to low levels (3-6 or so) they may seem a bit stronger than the wizard/sorc. At high levels (15+) I find they are a bit weak.

The "use at will" thing gets to be very significant at times. Baddies who try to do the ambush thing with invisibility will get their heads handed to them. The Wiz/Sorc won't have a detect inviso up during an 8 hour over-land journey. A warlock will. Flight at will is huge. Especially when combined with inviso at will. Could easily do a better job scouting than a rogue or scout.

All that said, I don't think warlocks are killer. But in some games (say 5 encounters per day, level 6 or so) they can be huge. It really depends on DM style.

Mark

 

[Crothian]

I think they are boring. They are too tightly specialized in what they can do, they ar etoo limited in what they can do. In a well balanced campaign (and I mean balance of activities and challenges the players have Role playing, thinking, pure combat, etc) the Warlock finds his abilities not always that useful. Hoever, in games where the DM doesn't alter the strategies and just playes into the hands of the Warlock the class will be destructive.

I played one till 10th lewvel and frankly by then I was just bored with the few things the class could do. It is the ultimate repeditive class.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

It is the ultimate repeditive class.

Dunno about that. Fighters aren't different: They use one weapon and have a couple of tricks up their sleave.
Fighters have their sword, warlocks their eldritch blast. Fighters have feats, warlocks their invocations.

This sort of character can be OK as well. Look at other examples: Wilder (very little psionic powers), Warmage (only blast spells, nothing else).

 

[Endur]

See the Unseen--Thanee's warlock has this invocation. Quite useful for darkvision. The see invisibility is only going to come into effect when an enemy is invisible. Is this going to be useful power for a PC? Yes. Is it broken? Nope. Many familiars and animal companions have scent, which is just as good at finding invisible enemies. Great flavor for a warlock. Powerful but not broken.

Charm--Similar to Charm Monster spell. Although you can use this ability more than once per day, as soon as you charm a new target, you lose the previous charmed target. Seems like Charm Monster 1/day to me. Balanced when compared to Charm Monster spell. Must be level 6 or higher for this ability.

Fell Flight--Fly all day long. Balanced when compared to overland flight spell. Must be level 6 or higher for this ability.

Chilling Tentacles-- Evard's Black Tentacles and do 2d6 cold damage. Must be 11th level or higher to cast. Weak power; Evard's only requires a 7th level caster.

None of these abilities are broken. The Warlock class is one of the best balanced classes that I've seen WOTC come out with. Actually -- most of the Complete Classes are fairly well balanced (the PRCs are unbalanced though).

 

[Crothian]

Dunno about that. Fighters aren't different: They use one weapon and have a couple of tricks up their sleave.
Fighters have their sword, warlocks their eldritch blast. Fighters have feats, warlocks their invocations.

Fighter get way more feats they acquire and a thousand fold more to choose from. They also have a wide variety of weapons that can do many different things avilible to them.

This sort of character can be OK as well. Look at other examples: Wilder (very little psionic powers), Warmage (only blast spells, nothing else).

I know nothing of the wilder, but the Warmage was much more fun to play then the Warlock. While all they have are attack spells they have a nice variety of attack spells. My 10th level Warmage was a lot of fun to play.

 

[brehobit]

I know nothing of the wilder, but the Warmage was much more fun to play then the Warlock. While all they have are attack spells they have a nice variety of attack spells. My 10th level Warmage was a lot of fun to play.

I love my Warlock/Barbarian 7/1. While the one-trick thing does get old (blast, fly, see inviso -- okay 3 tricks) I really enjoy finding new ways to use them. And the character is a very solid secondary fighter (spiked chain, combat reflexes, h. blow). And I don't have to worry about memorizing spells or even keeping track of spells. Throw in the minor scrolls and wands and the character is fairly flexible. I've only gotten to play him in a few one-shots, so perhaps he would grow old. But I don't think so.

Mark