Your thoughts on warlocks

[kigmatzomat]

Kae'Yoss: Yeah, the rogue is a thrower. He's specialized in throwing tricks.

I don't see why that would limit his damage output to the warlock. If you make 3 thrown attacks with surprise/stealth, they all get sneak attack. The warlock doesn't even have a range advantage since sneak only works to 30' regardless of weapon. The warlock's limited to 1 EB/round which should mitigate the dice advantage.

 

[Thanee]

And being able to charm monster all day long--wow, sad to think there are folks who even need to have the disruptive potential there explained to them.

Just out of curiosity, since I really cannot follow you there...

Do you consider a sorcerer with Charm Person/Monster to be disruptive, too?
Or only the warlock, because of the at will part?

Or in other words, do you consider charming in general to be too powerful?

Bye
Thanee

 

[hazmat]

I don't see why that would limit his damage output to the warlock. If you make 3 thrown attacks with surprise/stealth, they all get sneak attack. The warlock doesn't even have a range advantage since sneak only works to 30' regardless of weapon. The warlock's limited to 1 EB/round which should mitigate the dice advantage.

Right but in order to consistently get sneak attack the rogue needs to use a move action to make the opponent lose his dex. So he's usually limited to one ranged attack from 30'.

The Warlock using EB on the other hand is always limited to one touch attack from some large distance b/c of an invocation.

The rogue is pretty invested in throwing and it kind of sucks to have some other class outshines you when you've worked hard to be able to consistently do ranged sneak attack damage.

 

[Bauglir]

On the surface, I'd be concerned about characters taking a potential 1 level dip to get (effectively) always-on see invisibility & darkvision.

A friend of mine claims to have made a very powerful warlock build based around undead creation, using some rules from Libris Mortis, although he has a tendancy to 'embellish' the rules somewhat so I take that with a pinch of salt.

 

[Scion]

All of those abilities have a high potential to be disruptive. It is pretty fallacious to argue that smell is as good seeing the invisible, or that chilling tentacles is weak because the damage is low (damage has nothing to do with what makes it troublesome).

Just about any high level 'anything' (and even quite a bit of low level stuff) has the potential to be disruptive given the proper circumstances.

Scent however is a very good ability.

I have several warlocks in my group (actually, all of them have warlock levels because of a campaign issue) and half of them can see invisible. They are level 6 now, do you know how many times it has mattered? Once, and all it allowed them to do was see an invisible guy before he jumped someone they didnt even know.

The tentacles are another issue, it is based on a spell that is likely a bit overpowered. Mainly because grappling has some issues But, if you cut the spell down to +4 instead of +8 then both the spell and the invocation work much better.

And being able to charm monster all day long--wow, sad to think there are folks who even need to have the disruptive potential there explained to them.

You must really hate diplomacy then. Or people who can have more than one person charmed at a time. Do you not follow any rules about people who succeed at the will save?


So far I havent seen any issues.. I am a little worried about the at will dispel, we'll see how it goes (one character has dispel, another flight, the other two I am not sure what they chose.. it should definately be interesting.. )

 

[Scion]

On the surface, I'd be concerned about characters taking a potential 1 level dip to get (effectively) always-on see invisibility & darkvision.

A friend of mine claims to have made a very powerful warlock build based around undead creation, using some rules from Libris Mortis, although he has a tendancy to 'embellish' the rules somewhat so I take that with a pinch of salt.

Oh yeah, one of them got, 'the dead walk' or whatever it is called. It sounds very interesting, cant wait to see how it works out!

Do you feel that spending a level (and risking exp penalties) is worth it for see invis and darkvision that can be dispelled? (sure, it can be put back up easily, but anything will dispel it if a dispel happens to go off, caster level of 1 and all)

I've seen one level dips in barb for +10 movement, rage, and a d12 hd, one level dips in sorc for a mass of true strikes and ability to use arcane items, this is just another interesting one level dip choice to me

 

[Bauglir]

Oh yeah, one of them got, 'the dead walk' or whatever it is called. It sounds very interesting, cant wait to see how it works out!

Do you feel that spending a level (and risking exp penalties) is worth it for see invis and darkvision that can be dispelled? (sure, it can be put back up easily, but anything will dispel it if a dispel happens to go off, caster level of 1 and all)

I've seen one level dips in barb for +10 movement, rage, and a d12 hd, one level dips in sorc for a mass of true strikes and ability to use arcane items, this is just another interesting one level dip choice to me

Well to me the 'suprise' aspect of invisibility is a big one; one that with conventional (i.e. limited uses) spellcasting has a reasonable chance of success. At-will see invisibility (AND darkvision) is one of those things that tilts the whole dynamic to some degree - a group with this ability is not only immune to such tactics, but in many cases may turn an ambush against the attackers. Seems very good for just a 1-level dip. And you get the eldritch blast too. You never know when a ranged touch attack might come in handy

Consider also that this invocation creates the effect of two second level spells, with a longer duration than either, and it can be used at will - by comparison would a +4 bonus to 2 stats be appropriate for a 1 level dip?

 

[Scion]

At-will see invisibility (AND darkvision) is one of those things that tilts the whole dynamic to some degree - a group with this ability is not only immune to such tactics, but in many cases may turn an ambush against the attackers. Seems very good for just a 1-level dip. And you get the eldritch blast too. You never know when a ranged touch attack might come in handy

Pretty much anything can change any dynamics, every extra thing you toss in shifts the paradigm.

Still though, it is a nice little dip, but is it overly nicer than the others I listed? Is it always worthwhile to delay your primary class abilities?

Primary casters tend to not want to lose the level of casting, primary fighters tend not to lik the small hd and the missing point of BAB.

Consider also that this invocation creates the effect of two second level spells, with a longer duration than either, and it can be used at will - by comparison would a +4 bonus to 2 stats be appropriate for a 1 level dip?

I dont think that darkvision nor see invisibilty are directly comparable to +4 to even one stat (of course, it would be a named bonus to that stat, which really cuts into its usefulness, and easily dispelable). See invisibility just doesnt come up very often in my experience and lots of first level characters already have darkvision anyway. All it does in my mind is set them up to actually make the party able to use darkvision. After all, all it takes is one person without darkvision to make it so that the whole party is in or near the torchfire


Overall, it is definately an interesting and tough choice, but can provide for some good options. As can taking a dip into a large number of classes, each has their own strengths.

I like having the option there, it teases those guys who really want to go for a certain maximised goal but also really want to cover their butts.. lol

 

[Bauglir]

Pretty much anything can change any dynamics, every extra thing you toss in shifts the paradigm.

Still though, it is a nice little dip, but is it overly nicer than the others I listed? Is it always worthwhile to delay your primary class abilities?

Primary casters tend to not want to lose the level of casting, primary fighters tend not to lik the small hd and the missing point of BAB.

Well for a caster I certainly wouldn't waste my time, but for a fighter the tradeoff is only 2 hp, 1 BAB and half a feat. Even less for a rogue.

I dont think that darkvision nor see invisibilty are directly comparable to +4 to even one stat (of course, it would be a named bonus to that stat, which really cuts into its usefulness, and easily dispelable). See invisibility just doesnt come up very often in my experience and lots of first level characters already have darkvision anyway. All it does in my mind is set them up to actually make the party able to use darkvision. After all, all it takes is one person without darkvision to make it so that the whole party is in or near the torchfire

Well See Invisibility perhaps (it's subjective really - If I were playing CotSQ I'd take darkvision over bulls strength any day of the week ) - I just wanted to highlight that these are level 2 spells. To get access to these effects otherwise would require 3 levels of wizard, and an int of at least 14, and even then it's with a lower duration, and not at will. And the wizard is supposed to be the more focussed spellcaster!

 

[Shadowdweller]

I, for one, DO have problems with the warlock.

It's not that I think that the eldritch blast mechanic is unbalanced, nor that I take exceptions with warlocks don't suffer the same penalties with respect to resting that other spellcasters suffer. In fact, I don't think warlocks by themselves are unbalanced at all.

My issue with them is multiclassing. I don't have problems with an occasional character with 24-hour see invisible (which can be fairly well approximated with Permanency, don't forget). I do, however, have a problem with everyone and their mother having 24-hour see invisible. The returns for just a few levels are INSANE...detect magic at will, spider climb at will (keep in mind, that's one little level to make a whole skill largely irrelevant), seeing through magical darkness, etc.

Of course...while I've got a few players in my various play groups who are rabid warlock fans, I've still never seen many attempts at multiclass abuse. So maybe it's not an issue in actual practice.