And that is where I end up fundamentally disagreeing with you, since I think someone not focusing on one specific aspect of their character does not make for bad roleplaying. If being half-elven isn't important to the core of the character, they should be free to roleplay what matters to them. Similarly, if I want to develop an intricate character background and elements, but don't feel the need to run through a checklist in game to show them all off, I don't view that as bad roleplaying. And I'm frankly insulted when you claim that it is.
"You're a half elf? Really?" From the P.A. Podcasts
- Thread starter Hussar
- Start date
And that is where I end up fundamentally disagreeing with you, since I think someone not focusing on one specific aspect of their character does not make for bad roleplaying. If being half-elven isn't important to the core of the character, they should be free to roleplay what matters to them. Similarly, if I want to develop an intricate character background and elements, but don't feel the need to run through a checklist in game to show them all off, I don't view that as bad roleplaying. And I'm frankly insulted when you claim that it is.
Hussar
Legend
I'm sorry you feel insulted.
But, how can you consider it good role playing to ignore a pretty fundamental element of a character?
Again, why make a choice with your character and NEVER bring it to the table? How is it good role playing to make any choice (not just race) and then never, ever bring it to the table?
You don't need to focus on it, you don't need to weave it into the fabric of your existence. But, IMO, you do need to make everyone aware of it in order to have a well rounded character portrayal. At least to the point where no one is shocked to discover that you are whatever you are. If six months into a campaign, one of the players turns to you and says, "You're a what? Since when?" then that's a pretty serious failing in role play.
And you can replace the what with anything - race, gender, whatever.
To be 100% honest, I don't understand how ignoring character elements can be considered good role playing? How far does that go? At what point does it become bad roleplaying? If I never bother to portray anything about my character and simply use him as an avatar in the game world, that would be considered bad role play.
To me, if it's on your character sheet, it should come out some time during the campaign. It doesn't matter if it's race, gender, character background, whatever. If it doesn't hit the table, it's just wasted space and opportunity.
I've always wondered though, why is it only elf players who do this? No one else seems to have any problems conveying race. It's only the people, IME, who play elves (to be honest, Omyn's the first half-elf I can remember seeing in a VERY long time. 2e era to be certain.
Least played race after gnomes IME)
But, how can you consider it good role playing to ignore a pretty fundamental element of a character?
Again, why make a choice with your character and NEVER bring it to the table? How is it good role playing to make any choice (not just race) and then never, ever bring it to the table?
You don't need to focus on it, you don't need to weave it into the fabric of your existence. But, IMO, you do need to make everyone aware of it in order to have a well rounded character portrayal. At least to the point where no one is shocked to discover that you are whatever you are. If six months into a campaign, one of the players turns to you and says, "You're a what? Since when?" then that's a pretty serious failing in role play.
And you can replace the what with anything - race, gender, whatever.
To be 100% honest, I don't understand how ignoring character elements can be considered good role playing? How far does that go? At what point does it become bad roleplaying? If I never bother to portray anything about my character and simply use him as an avatar in the game world, that would be considered bad role play.
To me, if it's on your character sheet, it should come out some time during the campaign. It doesn't matter if it's race, gender, character background, whatever. If it doesn't hit the table, it's just wasted space and opportunity.
I've always wondered though, why is it only elf players who do this? No one else seems to have any problems conveying race. It's only the people, IME, who play elves (to be honest, Omyn's the first half-elf I can remember seeing in a VERY long time. 2e era to be certain.
Least played race after gnomes IME)When I play human characters, I never ever play up the fact that I am human. I almost never even mention it, unless prompted by another player sayin, "My race does this!"
Is it bad roleplaying not to periodically reinforce the idea that I am human? Or is not doing so okay because we default to human if a race isn't mentioned?
Is it bad roleplaying not to periodically reinforce the idea that I am human? Or is not doing so okay because we default to human if a race isn't mentioned?
Inyssius
First Post
Who are you to tell me what the fundamental elements of my character are?
Tallifer
Hero
The problem with modern Western culture is that no one wants to hear any instruction from anyone. At my workplace, most new employees come with attitude. In the gaming world, most new players do not want to learn how to roleplay... nor conversely do most roleplayers want to learn tactics.
Hussar
Legend
Again, how is the race of your character not a fundamental aspect of that character?
And, again, I'll ask, how much can I ignore the character sheet before I'm no longer role playing?
And, as far as humans go, I'll admit it doesn't bother me. Probably because the default assumptions (or at least my default assumptions
) usually lead to a humanocentric world, which pretty much defaults PC's to being human.I've never seen anyone surprised by someone being human.
Inyssius
First Post
My bard is human, but that's hardly one of his defining aspects. Without changing anything about him, he could be a half-elf raised in the city, or an eladrin, or a city-born elf. He could be a halfling or a gnome. He could even be a deva. He could be a dwarf--though in my current campaign dwarves don't come with their usual baggage, which would otherwise make him into a different person.
His looks would change slightly, but he would not otherwise be a different character.
Are you telling me I'm not really roleplaying? Because I know a couple of people who might disagree with that assessment.
Hussar
Legend
No, Inyssius, I'm saying you're not roleplaying the character that's on the sheet. IOW, you aren't roleplaying as well as you could be.
If you could replace the race of your character with any other race, you've failed to portray a pretty basic element of your character. Or, to put it another way, announce at the table next week that your character is an Eladrin and see what reaction you get.
If everyone nods, and says, "Well of course, that's what I always thought" then you are doing a great job of portraying an eladrin. If everyone looks at you blankly and says, "What? You're an eladrin? Since when?" then you did a very poor job of portraying an eladrin.
Please, everyone keeps expanding this beyond my original point. I don't care how well you portray the rest of your character. It could be great, it could be bad, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm confining this to the race of your character.
And, please answer the question - how much of my character sheet can I ignore before I'm no longer roleplaying? You misread that to mean that I'm accusing you of something. I'm not. I'm trying to show a point.
If I can ignore race, gender, and apparently appearance without changing the character and still be considered to be roleplaying well (note the well part of that), how much else can I ignore? Alignment? (well, in 4e you might) Class? Religion? Ability scores?
How far does it go? Race is like the first thing you choose about your character in pretty much every edition of D&D. It's the first section after abilities. Doesn't that mean that race is at least as important as anything else on your character sheet?
Or, at least important enough that it deserves to be mentioned once every three or four sessions for 30 seconds? Important enough that everyone else at the teble should know what it is?
For the last time, Do you need to make this a defining characteristic of your character? NO, absolutely not. I NEVER said that, although people have ascribed it to me enough times that I understand why other might make that mistake.
It is, IMO, however, a characteristic of your character and, as such, deserves a minimum of air time to establish at the table. That's all. I'm NOT claiming anything more than that. Just that it should be established in the minds of the other players so that no one is surprised when it is brought up in play. That's all.
Anything beyond that is entirely up to you.
If you could replace the race of your character with any other race, you've failed to portray a pretty basic element of your character. Or, to put it another way, announce at the table next week that your character is an Eladrin and see what reaction you get.
If everyone nods, and says, "Well of course, that's what I always thought" then you are doing a great job of portraying an eladrin. If everyone looks at you blankly and says, "What? You're an eladrin? Since when?" then you did a very poor job of portraying an eladrin.
Please, everyone keeps expanding this beyond my original point. I don't care how well you portray the rest of your character. It could be great, it could be bad, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm confining this to the race of your character.
And, please answer the question - how much of my character sheet can I ignore before I'm no longer roleplaying? You misread that to mean that I'm accusing you of something. I'm not. I'm trying to show a point.
If I can ignore race, gender, and apparently appearance without changing the character and still be considered to be roleplaying well (note the well part of that), how much else can I ignore? Alignment? (well, in 4e you might) Class? Religion? Ability scores?
How far does it go? Race is like the first thing you choose about your character in pretty much every edition of D&D. It's the first section after abilities. Doesn't that mean that race is at least as important as anything else on your character sheet?
Or, at least important enough that it deserves to be mentioned once every three or four sessions for 30 seconds? Important enough that everyone else at the teble should know what it is?
For the last time, Do you need to make this a defining characteristic of your character? NO, absolutely not. I NEVER said that, although people have ascribed it to me enough times that I understand why other might make that mistake.
It is, IMO, however, a characteristic of your character and, as such, deserves a minimum of air time to establish at the table. That's all. I'm NOT claiming anything more than that. Just that it should be established in the minds of the other players so that no one is surprised when it is brought up in play. That's all.
Anything beyond that is entirely up to you.
And, as far as humans go, I'll admit it doesn't bother me. Probably because the default assumptions (or at least my default assumptions
I've never seen anyone surprised by someone being human.
But those humans are still roleplaying poorly, because they aren't playing up the stereotype of their race. Why isn't that human playing up his apparent lack of respect for history due to his shorter collective memory that the other races have? Why isn't his ambition indicating his human nature? Why isn't his shorter lifespan being brought in conversation as a reminder that he doesn't live as long as the others? Their innovative nature, why isn't that being played up?
Humans have as many distinctions as the other races really, insofar as differences from the others. In my experiences people tend to roleplay most races as having human nature 'rub off' on them in many respects. The assumption that every PC is human doesn't suddenly make it 'okay' to not emphasize it if that expectation is there for other races.
In case anyone was wondering, I took the human qualities from the 3.5 PHB.
~shrug~ I will try to refrain from commenting more, as I realize Hussar was simply having a rant, and not actually trying to change anyone's roleplaying views, I just see his position as flawed in some respects.
I agree that race shouldn't be entirely in the background, but I also feel the roleplayers should not feel that the race they select is a straight jacket, and feel the need to setup a checklist of things to emphasize to ensure they aren't 'playing their character wrong'.
Also, I'd like to note that during combat in 4E one's race will likely become apparent, if a Character uses Dragonbreath, they are either a Dragonborn, or a Dragonborn Revenant... if a PC uses the Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes ability for a bonus toward a roll, well, chances are they are a Deva. If a character uses an at-will ability that isn't from their selected class, they are a Half-Elf.
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