"You're a half elf? Really?" From the P.A. Podcasts

[Theroc]

Some players find they can play more dynamic characters that way, rather than the bad-animesque "I had a traumatic experience in childhood and now I can only ever act in a singular predetermined fashion" that you often see from 'background'-saavy players.

Draco summed up my strait-jacket feeling rather well. I've had this happen on other formats besides D&D. (Haven't had it too much in D&D, as I don't feel people will jump on me as much about my character's brain as in some other places) Basically, I don't want the history to predetermine my choices in game. If I ended up making such a history, I definitely want to work with my DM and group to BREAK that restraint with me so my character can be more dynamic and flow with the game.

I often find I can roleplayer more effectively if there's less 'fluff' in the background of my character. Though, I suppose I could always go and describe my characters appearance a few times as well, it really doesn't seem crucial to the game. For 'roleplaying' however, I suppose it is important, thought I don't think there is one school of thought on the definition of good roleplaying.

I was once on a site that I nearly got banned from because I did not agree that the most important component was proper spelling and grammar. I shortly thereafter left, because I didn't feel welcome after that.

 

[Barastrondo]

Now, Barastrondo, you mention the player that simply doesn't care. He doesn't care if anyone else at the table has a mental picture of his character. Would you call him a good role player? If he makes no effort to portray his character in any way other than simply the mechanics ((I am Fytor, I use a sword +2)), would you characterize him as a good role player?

I certainly wouldn't.

No, but I really don't think the "for heaven's sake, just tell us what your character is like, and if it looks like we've forgotten, remind us" approach, wherein you place all the responsibility on the player to be proactive about communication, is going to make him a better one. Stating a rule wherein "if you do not do this, you are a bad roleplayer" is no kind of encouragement. There is no universal responsibility for him to entertain you without prompting. There is no universal requirement for someone to be a "good roleplayer" to be allowed to play D&D. They don't owe you that if you're not even willing to ask for it.

If you want someone to become a good roleplayer, take an interest. Ask what his character's like. Lead by example. See if you can't get him interested in sharing with the rest of the players, basically by doing what you think he should be doing yourself and looking like you're having fun doing it. But lectures are less encouraging than leading by example, and saying "you're not a good roleplayer" is about seventy-three times less productive than just asking what his character looks like in the first place.

It just doesn't seem worth a rant to me, or a rule or anything. If people care about projecting their image into their fellow players' heads, they'll do it. If people care what a character looks like, they'll ask. If neither party cares, what exactly is going wrong?

 

[MrMyth]

Mr. Myth - honestly, I think we agree more than we disagree.

And I actually... don't. I'm pretty sure I disagree thoroughly with the heart of your premise and everything it represents.

Keep it to what I'm actually asking about - 30 seconds of effort. Mention small tidbits, from time to time, that give the rest of the group something to hang a mental picture off of.

I'm starting to get somewhat frustrated with you sidestepping all the points being brought up that really demonstrate the genuine problems with your view. The fact that the time can add up. The fact that I've outright demonstrated how a player can come up with character elements without feeling that those elements are important enough to merit being brought up in game.

First off - as I mentioned in the very post you responded to, 30 seconds can add up. Especially if a character has several small details that the player thought would be cool to include (without expecting that doing so would 'require' them to make a big deal of it at the game table), and some of these small details do have people ask for clarification or comment on them, and if everyone at the table is in the same boat.

But in the end, however much time that it requires, you continue to ignore the main point - that time belongs to that player, and that group, and not to Hussar. They are not required to waste time playing the way you want them to, rather than the way they want to play.

Like I said - if you were simply suggesting this... simply saying, "I think your game can be improved by this method of roleplaying I suggest"... I could accept that. But when countless people in this thread are saying that "no, it wouldn't", and giving you many reasons as to why, and you are continuing to insist that they are wrong about how they are playing their game... yeah, I don't get that.

I asked this before and you ignored it. I'll ask it again:

Can you truly not accept that some people might feel that time is better spent focusing on more important aspects of their character, or roleplaying about the world around them or the plot, rather than about character details that are not important to them?

If you are fine with it - if you can accept that other players might not feel that acting like a grotesque racial stereotype is requisite to good roleplaying - then I'm cool with that. If not... then I guess I'm done here, and will continue to be appalled at some of the attitudes that plague this hobby.

 

[Hussar]

But is 'good roleplayer' essential for the enjoyment of D&D? Some people are in it for the tactical exercise. Other people are in it for catharsis of one sort or another.
/snip

Nope. Good roleplayer is not essential for the enjoyment of D&D and I never stated otherwise.

However, "good roleplayer" is essential to being a good roleplayer.

Can you truly not accept that some people might feel that time is better spent focusing on more important aspects of their character, or roleplaying about the world around them or the plot, rather than about character details that are not important to them?

If you are fine with it - if you can accept that other players might not feel that acting like a grotesque racial stereotype is requisite to good roleplaying - then I'm cool with that. If not... then I guess I'm done here, and will continue to be appalled at some of the attitudes that plague this hobby.

Again, please point to where I stated that you have to act "like a grotesque racial stereotype". If you would stop rewriting my point and actually look at what I'm saying, you'd see our points are not that far apart.

I'll answer your question with a question. If you choose an aspect for your character that is never referenced at the table, what purpose does it serve? If it never comes up, if you, the player in question, don't think it's important enough to ever draw any attention to, why did you choose it?

What's the point of having a beard if you never, ever mention that you have one?

It makes you feel better? Ok, fine, but, I play D&D and other RPG's as a group exercise. There are four or five other people around the table. Anything that exists in your head and no where else adds nothing to the game.

You say I didn't address your points. I think that I did. Obviously, if the player is monopolizing time, that's a problem. Nowhere did I suggest that. What I suggested is for a player to do something like Wil Wheaton's "Don't call me an elf, elves are our country cousins" comment. That right there cements an image in everyone's mind about what Wil Wheaton's character is like.

How is that taking over the game?

Note, just to be absolutely clear here. I'm in no way talking about a sort of touchy feely concept of "If it feels good you're doing it right" sort of approach to gaming. I'm SPECIFICALLY talking about role playing, which is only a subset of the entire game. That's why I keep harping on this time thing. It's not the focus of the game or the character. It's a tag line once in a while just to establish basic facts about your character.

To me, that's what separates a good role player from someone engaging in tactical wargaming. The difference between a role player and a roll player.

You can have fun with D&D and other RPG's without doing this. Of course you can. I've certainly done it and will likely do it again. But, if you want to be a good role player, then make the effort. I think you'll find it rewarding and, if you lead by example, the rest of your group will bring up their play as well.

 

[Barastrondo]

I'll answer your question with a question. If you choose an aspect for your character that is never referenced at the table, what purpose does it serve? If it never comes up, if you, the player in question, don't think it's important enough to ever draw any attention to, why did you choose it?

The answer is probably, as usual, "for my benefit." The game ultimately takes place in your imagination, and if that aspect of the character is present in your imagination, that is for some people enough.

It makes you feel better? Ok, fine, but, I play D&D and other RPG's as a group exercise. There are four or five other people around the table. Anything that exists in your head and no where else adds nothing to the game.

Untrue. It adds something to the game for precisely one person. That's all that really has to be justified, in much the same way that a player isn't obligated to take 30 seconds of roleplaying every now and again to play up that she possesses Dwarven Weapon Training instead of just an ordinary proficiency with axes, or that she gets a racial +2 to Wisdom.

If other people feel that the absence of these details detracts from their experience, they have the power to politely ask for those details. I just don't think it's fair to talk of the value of character description as valuable only if it impacts other players and not place any responsibility on those other players for eliciting these descriptions.

Note, just to be absolutely clear here. I'm in no way talking about a sort of touchy feely concept of "If it feels good you're doing it right" sort of approach to gaming. I'm SPECIFICALLY talking about role playing, which is only a subset of the entire game.

Well, your original question was essentially "Why would someone write 'elf' on a character sheet and not play that choice up at the table?" That question was, I think, answered. Maybe the player isn't all that interested in the roleplaying aspect. Maybe some choices are of solely mechanical interest to the player, and not aspects he's interested in having affect his character's personality or bearing. That may not be your favorite style of play, but I think it'd be lousy precedent if there was a movement to ban people from making character selections that they didn't intend to roleplay.

If we're going with the more specialized question of "If you want all the choices on your character sheet to have a meaningful impact on the group's roleplaying, why don't you call attention to them?", then no, that hasn't been answered. But at that point I think we're talking about entirely theoretical people. If people want a choice on a character sheet to be meaningful to the rest of the group, they'll let everyone know about it without prompting. If they don't or they don't care, this advice doesn't apply to them.

 

[Hussar]

I think I missed the question in the scrum, so I'll answer it now.

How do you present your character without taking up too much time? Without ado, here's my process:

Hussar's Method for Making Sure Everyone at the Table Knows You're a Half-Elf
[sblock]Without being obnoxious about it.[/sblock]

Tagline 1. Successful Skill Check:

"When I was a child, my mother sent me to live with her people in the Feywild. While I was there, my uncle told me about these things. They are... (insert information here)

Tagline 2. Unsuccessful Skill check (used after #1)

"My uncle never told me about these!"

Tagline 3. Smack talk

"You look vaguely familiar, did my uncle leave a tip for your grandmother?"

Tagline 4. Vaguely annoyed.

"Ah man, another flea bitten town. Let me cover my ears. Bloody merchants see the points and jack up the prices twenty per cent!"

Tagline 4.5 Vaguely annoyed again.

"Ah man, another flea bitten town. Let me cover my ears. Last time some yokel thought I was a bloody tiefling and tried to get a priest to exorcise me!"

Tagline 5 Expletive

"By the grove of my mother!"

Tagline 6 Expletive

"Y'know what? I come in two halves. And both of them want you dead!"

There. That's all it takes. I came up with that in a few moments. It doesn't have to take up huge game time, it doesn't have to dominate the game or the character. Drop one of the above lines in a game from time to time, maybe every session or three and poof! Everyone know's you're a half elf.

And knowing is half the battle.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

How do you present your character without taking up too much time? Without ado, here's my process:

The thing is, even those things take up time. Not much. But when each and every member of the group has to throw in a tag line like that when making skill checks, encountering a town, meeting new people, and so on...it starts to take significant time.

After the first time we introduce ourselves, so we can get an idea of our character's personalities, we normally reduce it down to "We introduce ourselves" the next time. When we encounter a town, we say "We enter the town and find an inn".

We've had players attempt to use these moments for "personal roleplaying", and it gets other members of our group annoyed. We have one player in particular who likes to play up one character trait and mention it whenever possible. He has a Shifter who likes to mention that "My ancestors used to EAT your kind, you know?" all the time. Every time we disagree with a decision he makes, he's sure to say something like that again. If we go into a town, he likes to say "My ancestors would not have been allowed into a town like this".

We know he's a Shifter. We don't care. All it does is slow the game down him mentioning it over and over again. We care about getting to the town so we can protect it from the oncoming Giant horde so we can get on with our quest than we care about him mentioning that he's a Shifter again. He's our Cleric first and Shifter second.

 

[Hussar]

NO NO NO.

Gack.

Jeez, I agree with you. If it's coming up "Every single time" then yes, it's a problem. Sure, I totally, 110% agree with you. If it's coming up so often that it's actually annoying, then yes, it should get scaled down a bit.

But, just because it can be a problem if overdone, does not mean that it should NEVER be done.

You can overdo anything. Does that mean I should never role play any aspect of a character? I should simply be Fytor GoodwithSwords? And my good friend Father Generic and his trusty sidekick, Weezard?

Come on. Yes. Extremes exist on the far side of things. I know this. I accept it.

But it certainly does not excuse NEVER bringing it up either.

You say that you know he's a Shifter. Ok, fine. What are the races of the other character's in your group? Can you name them? If so, then mission accomplished, move on, nothing to see here. If not, then a bit of effort might be a good thing to create well rounded characters.

BTW, "My ancestor used to eat your kind" is a great tagline. Like all spices, it should be used with care, but, it's still funny the first time.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Jeez, I agree with you. If it's coming up "Every single time" then yes, it's a problem. Sure, I totally, 110% agree with you. If it's coming up so often that it's actually annoying, then yes, it should get scaled down a bit.

Meh, I think at this point, he's settled down from mentioning it all the time. But he did it often enough that if he EVER does it again, I'll be forced to beat him upside the head for it. Well, maybe not...we play at his house. *grin*

You can overdo anything. Does that mean I should never role play any aspect of a character? I should simply be Fytor GoodwithSwords? And my good friend Father Generic and his trusty sidekick, Weezard?

In a way, yes. We play a very plot based game. The goal is to figure out how to solve the plot and work together in order to get it done.

Whether someone is a Shifter or not holds no bearing on whether he uses a Healing Word on me this round of combat or whether he wants to look for the magic items or search the library for information about our foe.

Well, unless you want to stereotype the race. You could say that being a Shifter he doesn't have the patience or intelligence to want to do the book reading thing and therefore will decide to go find magic items instead. Or, we could just establish that he can pick either option regardless of his race...which means his race doesn't matter.

I admit, members of my group are...impatient when it comes to roleplaying. They'll allow a small bit of roleplaying when it seems appropriate. Preferably limited to one liners to avoid slowing down the game.

But it certainly does not excuse NEVER bringing it up either.

Certainly not never. We all mentioned it in our descriptions when we were level 1. That was 6 months ago, of course.

You say that you know he's a Shifter. Ok, fine. What are the races of the other character's in your group? Can you name them? If so, then mission accomplished, move on, nothing to see here. If not, then a bit of effort might be a good thing to create well rounded characters.

Ironically enough, because of this thread I put this to the test a couple of weeks ago. I pointed out that I had no idea what race at least half the party was, since it had never really come up. I mentioned this thread and it seems the sentiment in the group was "Sure, it never came up...but it just isn't that important."

I know our Warlock is a Warforged. But I had no idea for the first 4 or 5 sessions. I thought he was a Tiefling...I think just because he acted kind of "evil" and was a Warlock. I only found out he was a Warforged when he told us he was holding 1 Sword and 2 Rods in order to get the benefit of all 3 properties. I asked him how and he said "Embedded Components. That's the reason I'm playing a Warforged." I know his name is Rock. That might have been a hint...but it wasn't. When I brought up this thread to him and said "I had no idea you were a Warforged for the first 5 or 6 sessions, by the way. You don't really do anything to roleplay the fact that you are a Warforged", he replied, "I don't know how to roleplay a Warforged. There's nothing you can do to roleplay them." I laughed. He didn't get it.

Our Wizard...I found out he was an Eladrin after I brought up this thread. I only know he's the guy who abuses Lasting Frost. When I think back, I did have one hint he was Eladrin a couple of sessions ago when we got transported to the Feywild and he mentioned being back home. I only remember that his name is Immeral, which people keep mispronouncing Emeril. So every time his initiative comes up, I yell out "BAM!"

Our Cleric is the aforementioned Shifter. We know him.

Our Barbarian is a Minotaur. He doesn't let us forget it. He is a charging specialist who likes to gore people with his horns. Also, his name is Moostafa.

We have a Warlord. I...still don't know what race he is. It was told to me 2 weeks ago when I mentioned this thread. I've forgotten again. It's not important enough for me to remember. The player of this character switches characters every second week or so. We're used to him just "getting bored" with his character so often, we barely remember who they are anymore.

We're just focused on finding the materials we need to make magic items in order to defeat the big bad guy right now. I'm fairly certain my character doesn't much care if the people helping him save the world are Shifters or Humans or Mind Flayers...as long as they are helping. And they don't hurt trees. Or Rocks. Rocks are my friends.

Oh, I'm a Dwarven Warden.

 

[Hussar]

I admit, members of my group are...impatient when it comes to roleplaying. They'll allow a small bit of roleplaying when it seems appropriate. Preferably limited to one liners to avoid slowing down the game.

Thus, and I'm rather sorry to say it, my point of "not very good role play". I'm absolutely not casting any aspersions on how much fun you are having. If that's the way you want to play, fill your boots. Go for it.

I don't.

That's why it was my rant, and not general advice. I absolutely don't want to play this way. And I don't want to play in a group that plays this way. Yes, I do consider it bad role playing. How can I not?

That doesn't mean you're not having fun, or that your game is bad for you. It is bad for me though.