"You're a half elf? Really?" From the P.A. Podcasts

[Barastrondo]

I leave with this final thought. Yes, it's perfectly fine for "It sounds fun" to be a reason to choose something. But, my question is, "Why? Why does it sound fun? What about that particular choice makes it appealing to you? If your character behaves in all ways EXACTLY the same regardless of what race (or whatever the choice happens to be) you choose, then how does choosing something different add to your fun? If your female character acts in all ways exactly the same as your male character, then how is writing female on your character sheet enhancing your fun?"

Is not the aesthetic enough? Is not "I think this character would look great if he was portrayed by Idris Elba" reason enough to play a black character? Is not "I think elves look neat, and I would like my character to look like that" reason enough to play an elf? Choosing race or gender or ethnicity may be as simple as picking an eye color or a heraldic device.

It seems rather silly to demand justification for players picking a race on aesthetic, rules or even thoroughly whimsical grounds. Why it entertains them isn't really the point: when you start asking why they don't just play a human, you're not really asking about how they're deriving their entertainment, you're asking about why they're not entertaining you to your own personal standard by roleplaying these choices in such a way that you expect. And though it may depend on the group, that probably isn't their job.

 

[MrMyth]

Nope. However, I do think they are worse role players. If person A portrays all aspects of his character and person B portrays only a subset of the aspects, Person A is a better role player. How can he not be?

Look, this isn't a game where you have to hit a set quota of topics about your character. One isn't graded on roleplaying by the quantity of topics they roleplayed - a character who is a religious fanatic to the exclusion of all else, can be just as solidly roleplayed as a dwarven warrior who values his culture, his country, and his faith, can be just as solidly roleplayed as the planar-traveling rogue who seems to focus on a new character element every session.

The problem is that you are telling people what aspects of their character are important. That isn't your decision - that is theirs. The fact that Person B didn't make a big deal of his race doesn't represent a failure of roleplaying on his behalf - it represents him prioritizing different character elements than you do.

That returns us to the start of this thread, where you seemed to be looking for an explanation of this behavior. You've been given one - many players might not feel that race is a defining element of a specific character. Having been given that explanation, though, you've turned from wondering what their motivations are, to actively condemning them.

So, according to you, I could change Luke Skywalker to Lucy Skywalker, change none of the dialogue in the rest of the movie, change none of the scenes, and it should make absolutely no difference in the movie?

Or, perhaps in the new Sherlock Holmes movie, Watson could be played by Nicole Kidman and it would be exactly the same story?

Or, we could have Morgan Freeman's character in Robin Hood Prince of Thieves be played by a white actor and it would make no difference to that story?

There are many characters for whom specifics are important. There are also many for whom it isn't - are you telling me that of every movie in existence, in not a single one can you find a character who you could change the race of while having the rest of the story remain fully intact?

You are completely perverting the opposing argument in order to win this debate. No one is claiming that there are "absolutely no differences in gender or race". People are simply stating that there can exist roles in which those specific elements are not relevant. Trying to deny that by picking out individual examples that don't work - while ignoring the limitless number of ones that do... that's not reasonable by any stretch of the imagination.

Wil Wheaton added the eladrin character. So, right there, there's your in. "Oh, you're an eladrin. My mother told me many stories of the Eladrin homeland. I'd love to see it sometime."

They went to a bar - "Do you have any ((Insert elven sounding wine here))?"

Most people of mixed heritages are curious about their heritages to some degree. Show a bit of curiousity once in a while and that cements in everyone's head that you are half-elven.

There is one key word in there that is a pretty big deal. You seem to feel that every character should be defined precisely as you feel is appropriate. You don't have that right. What if Tycho's character doesn't care about Eladrin homelands, doesn't care about elven wines, isn't curious about elven customs or human customs???

What if he was raced in a human city, and his elven heritage just doesn't matter to him? I am almost incapable of believing that you genuinely feel there are stereotypes that must be adhered to in order to qualify as a 'good roleplayer'.

Do you genuinely feel there could not exist a half-elf who was raised in human society, has made peace with their mixed heritage, and doesn't in any way let it influence their outlook of the world?

Because I know people like that in real life, and let me tell you - once I start applying the arguments you are using to real-world examples, it becomes frightening how offensive they are. There may well be traits that are common to one demographic or another, but they are never universal. Stereotypes are not some law that needs to be enforced, and insisting upon it in a game - not just preferring it, but literally claiming it is a requirement for good roleplaying - is absurd to the extreme.

 

[Sacrificial Lamb]

Meh, again, I was simply pointing to this as an example. An example of something I've seen over and over again from people who play elves. Apparently people seem to think that there is absolutely no differences between genders or ethnicity or race and we're all pretty much just exact carbon copies of each other.

I would point to a whole slew of media and writing that says that you're wrong. That there really are actual differences between, say, men and women. I know it might not be politically correct to say so, but, there really are differences there. Honest.

To be honest, I wasn't sure who said Omin has always been a half elf. He's certainly not drawn as one in the comics. But, again, for the umpteenth bloody time, IT WAS AN EXAMPLE.

Look, after this long, people have started just arguing me instead of the point I'm trying to make, so, like I said a few pages back, it's time for me to bow out.

I leave with this final thought. Yes, it's perfectly fine for "It sounds fun" to be a reason to choose something. But, my question is, "Why? Why does it sound fun? What about that particular choice makes it appealing to you? If your character behaves in all ways EXACTLY the same regardless of what race (or whatever the choice happens to be) you choose, then how does choosing something different add to your fun? If your female character acts in all ways exactly the same as your male character, then how is writing female on your character sheet enhancing your fun?"

And, despite several pages of this thread, NOT ONE of you has answered that. Not one person has bothered to explain why ignoring this enhances enjoyment at the table. I've stated that ignoring choices actually hurts the fun at the table because it robs the rest of the players of the chance to role play as well.

So, if your choice makes zero difference to how you will play this character, why did you make the choice?

Dude, you're frothing at the mouth here. It's not that big of a deal. Let's say I have a half-elven fighter named Bob, raised by humans. Neither he nor his adoptive parents care about his ancestry. He feels no conflict about his mixed heritage. And that's fine. In real life, I have a mixed ancestry, and I don't care about these things either.

In this case, "Bob", the half-elf was charming and pleasant, so he never had to suffer much in the way of racial intolerance.

So why did I choose to create a half-elf? BECAUSE I FELT LIKE IT. The end.

These details aren't important to everybody, and it doesn't mean we're roleplaying our characters "the wrong way". It just means we're not roleplaying our characters Hussar's way. Of all the things for a gamer to get worked up about, this one really takes the cake.

Oh, and by the way, don't compare roleplaying games to novels. That's a poor analogy, and it simply doesn't fly here. Period.

P.S. In case you're wondering, I use a funny voice when I roleplay my raven familiar (if it matters), but I only do so when the mood takes me, and not when it suits someone else. So please don't tell me how to play my damn elf or half-elf, because that's downright obnoxious.

 

[Merkuri]

So, according to you, I could change Luke Skywalker to Lucy Skywalker, change none of the dialogue in the rest of the movie, change none of the scenes, and it should make absolutely no difference in the movie?

Or take the movie Aliens and cast a female actor for the originally male character Ripley and not change any action or dialog? Oh, wait, that one worked just fine.

 

[Blair Goatsblood]

So, according to you, I could change Luke Skywalker to Lucy Skywalker, change none of the dialogue in the rest of the movie, change none of the scenes, and it should make absolutely no difference in the movie?

Interestingly enough the Luke Skywalker character was originally conceived as female.

 

[UndeadScottsman]

Interestingly enough the Luke Skywalker character was originally conceived as female.

And honestly, the only issue I have with making the character female is explaining why Han never hit on her.

 

[fanboy2000]

And honestly, the only issue I have with making the character female is explaining why Han never hit on her.

I think Han was originally a different species.

 

[MarkB]

And honestly, the only issue I have with making the character female is explaining why Han never hit on her.

Well, there'd still be Leia around, and Han didn't even hit on Leia in Episode IV until the closing moments of the movie. I don't think he'd be particularly into some brat farmer kid who kept getting him into trouble.

 

[Hussar]

Is not the aesthetic enough? Is not "I think this character would look great if he was portrayed by Idris Elba" reason enough to play a black character? Is not "I think elves look neat, and I would like my character to look like that" reason enough to play an elf? Choosing race or gender or ethnicity may be as simple as picking an eye color or a heraldic device.

It seems rather silly to demand justification for players picking a race on aesthetic, rules or even thoroughly whimsical grounds. Why it entertains them isn't really the point: when you start asking why they don't just play a human, you're not really asking about how they're deriving their entertainment, you're asking about why they're not entertaining you to your own personal standard by roleplaying these choices in such a way that you expect. And though it may depend on the group, that probably isn't their job.

But, if you never bring that aesthetic to the table, who cares? "My character would look great portrayed by Idris Elba" is fantastic. Great. Wonderful.

Now, communicate that fact to the rest of the players at the table.

Because if, in your mind, your character looks like Idris Elba, but you never once refer to yourself that way, in no way mention any physical aspect of your character, then how is anyone at the table EVER going to recognize that aesthetic choice?

That's the point I keep coming back to. It's all well and good to have these ideas in your head, but, until they actually get brought up in play, how do they exist anywhere else? You can picture your character however you want. That's a good thing. You should have a mental picture of your character.

But, until you show everyone else that picture, who cares? If it only exists in your mind, then it certainly isn't being role played.

Or take the movie Aliens and cast a female actor for the originally male character Ripley and not change any action or dialog? Oh, wait, that one worked just fine.

So, you're saying that if Ripley was replaced by a male actor, then all the dynamics of Alien, and especially Alien 2, would be exactly the same?

Note, there's nothing saying you can't replace the characters. What I'm saying is if you replace the characters, then they are going to be received differently.

Sacrificial Lamb - I understand what you're saying. But the response is pretty much the same as what I said to Barastrondo. You chose to play a half-elf, just because. No deep thought, no real reason in particular. How is anyone playing with you going to know that you are a half elf?

Are you saying that every single NPC in the world should react to you in exactly the same way regardless of your race? Are you claiming that all the PC's should treat you exactly the same regardless of your race? But, if you never bring it up, and everyone else doesn't think to ask, then that's exactly what's going to happen.

For the umpteenth time, please don't put words in my mouth. I'm asking for thirty seconds of effort once in a while to establish an obvious, visible fact about your character. The character is not human. Unless you take some pains to hide that fact (which in turn draws attention at the table to the fact that your character isn't human and serves the same purpose), people are going to recognize your character as being different.

I'm not saying that it MUST BE A MAJOR DEAL. What I'm saying is that players should make a minimal amount of effort to establish fairly obvious physical facts about their characters.

Wow, you guys make it sound like I'm demanding so much. I'm asking for 30 seconds of work. Is it really so much to ask?

 

[Barastrondo]

But, if you never bring that aesthetic to the table, who cares? "My character would look great portrayed by Idris Elba" is fantastic. Great. Wonderful.

Now, communicate that fact to the rest of the players at the table.

Sure. Particularly if they ask. However, this does cut both ways. If you've been playing for three months and suddenly the rest of the group is saying "Wait, you're black? I totally didn't know who that actor was you mentioned; I was buying equipment and didn't think about it", it's not just on the player who's not making an issue of character description. It's also on every other player who didn't ask for a clear picture of what their fellow characters looked like. In the case of the podcast, Omin Dran's race didn't matter to anybody for the first adventure or so; it didn't matter enough to Tycho to be a part of his character (likely again due to the pre-gen), and it didn't matter enough to the other guys.

Because if, in your mind, your character looks like Idris Elba, but you never once refer to yourself that way, in no way mention any physical aspect of your character, then how is anyone at the table EVER going to recognize that aesthetic choice?

If they care enough, one would assume they ask. We're describing a really odd situation here, though, where nobody knows what race or ethnicity or even gender your character is: one that depends on one player not reminding everyone else what his or her character looks like, and also on other players not caring enough to keep the picture in their head or to ask.

I'm not saying that it MUST BE A MAJOR DEAL. What I'm saying is that players should make a minimal amount of effort to establish fairly obvious physical facts about their characters.

Wow, you guys make it sound like I'm demanding so much. I'm asking for 30 seconds of work. Is it really so much to ask?

Even if it takes a mere 30 seconds to describe your character, it takes a mere 5 for anyone else at the table to say "Hey, what did you look like again?" If players don't make a minimal amount of effort to care about fairly obvious physical facts about the other characters in the group, it doesn't matter whether someone takes that 30 seconds or not. In instances where, for instance, nobody remembers that Dave is playing an elf, I don't think it's fair to place that solely at Dave's feet.