D&D 4E Yugoloths in 4E

[Dunamin]

Interesting ways to relate fiends, Krust. I like it!

Do the thematical ties of specific devils to sins in Christianity originate from somewhere when these fiends were written up in D&D, or is that your own conceptualization?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Interesting ways to relate fiends, Krust. I like it!

Do the thematical ties of specific devils to sins in Christianity originate from somewhere when these fiends were written up in D&D, or is that your own conceptualization?

Well in certain occult classifications (Psellus) Demons are given six classifications: Aerial, Terrestrial (Subterranean), Terrestrial (Sylvan), Aqueous, Igneus and Heliophobe (basically Night Demon). Interestingly, 4E described the Shadow and Feywild planes as where they put all the dark and all the shiny stuff respectively.

Therefore we could hypothesize:

Aerial - Vrock - Pazuzu - Air
Aqueus - Hezrou - Demogorgon - Water
Terrestrial (Subterranean) - Glabrezu - Zuggtmoy - Earth
Terrestrial (Sylvan) - Marilith (though I might have initially said Succubus) - Graz'zt - Feywild
Igneus - Balor - Kardum - Fire
Heliophobe - Nalfeshnee (or Nabassu) - Orcus - Shadow Plane

Now is that a perfect fit or what.

I'm thinking there would be minor (Heroic Tier), major (Paragon Tier) and True (Epic Tier) Demons. So you might have: Skullvym (Minor), Wastrilith (Major), Myrmixicus (True) Water Demons or Zovvut (Minor), Nabassu (Major), Nalfeshnee (True) Night Demons.

Of course you could always look to represent Para-Elemental (Juiblex for Ooze etc.) and Quasi-Elemental planes in a similar fashion.

The Obyrith could be some sort of Far Realm-Demon Crossbreed. Whilst the Yugoloths could be some sort of Shadow Plane-Demon Crossbreed (Their negative plane links is what makes them disease ridden?). Half-demons would be the Prime Crossbreed, but I am not sure where the Loumara would fit in that but probably as some sort of Astral crossbreed, with the Fomorians already ruling the FeyWild as the Fey-Demon crossbreed.

As regards Devils, in occult lore the terms demon and devil are often interchangeable. However, those named beings in D&D known as Archdevils are sometimes linked with the seven sins.

Lucifer - Pride (Unlikely that WotC will include Lucifer in D&D of course)
Mammon - Avarice
Asmodeus - Lust
Satan - Anger (Again, unlikely Satan will be mentioned in D&D)
Beelzebub - Gluttony
Leviathan - Envy
Belphegor - Sloth

To bring that more into line with D&D you could have:

Asmodeus - Pride
Mephisto - Envy
Beelzebul - Gluttony?
Geryon - Wrath
Belial - Lust
Mammon - Avarice
Dispater - Sloth?

Again I think its a small step to transpose the sins onto stock devils again with the three tiered approach: Least Devil (Heroic), Lesser Devil (Paragon) and Greater Devil (Epic).

Perhaps: Succubus (Least), Erinyes (Lesser) and Paeliriyon (Greater) as Devils of Lust, or Bearded (Least), Malebranche (Lesser) and Pit Fiend (Greater) as Devils of Wrath.

 

[Lackhand]

<snip> Perhaps: Succubus (Least), Erinyes (Lesser) and Paeliriyon (Greater) as Devils of Lust <snip>

Most of your post is brilliant. Nonetheless, 1) ew and 2) ew. Peliriyon. Ew.

Also, your classification of demons is (hopefully?) spot on. Good times, clever stuff.
Your classification of devils seems less so; as I imagine they'll give relatively little thought to the relative choirs of angels, I suspect that devils will be somewhat haphazard in types.

While the rulers may be sinfully aligned, and certain members of the race tied to a sin (succubus. Lust.), on the whole, I do not think that that sin-themes will be their core organizational pole.

Devils were made by a dark god, who they slew and seized the powers of; as directly created beings of the will of a deity, I think that that will be their thematic and organizational type. "What role did I fill for the fallen deity".

Maybe it will be, but it seems a lot more strained.

 

[Dunamin]

I can see what you’re trying to do here, Krust, and it’s truly fascinating, but I think one of the general design philosophies in 4E is to downplay starting-points where you fill a slot in an overarching pattern (for instance, by ditching the cosmological symmetry elements). Good show, nonetheless.

However, I also think that devils generally will not be themed over individual sins. Besides the point that there are only 7 deadly sins but 9 layers of Hell, I don’t see any of the sins characterizing, say, Dispater better than “paranoia”.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Lackhand!

Most of your post is brilliant.

Nonetheless, 1) ew and 2) ew. Peliriyon. Ew.

Also, your classification of demons is (hopefully?) spot on. Good times, clever stuff.

It seems the obvious choice for classification.

Your classification of devils seems less so; as I imagine they'll give relatively little thought to the relative choirs of angels, I suspect that devils will be somewhat haphazard in types.

Well I wonder how they will deal with Angels directly in 4E. They have already mentioned the Angel of Vengeance and I seem to recall they mentioned one of the Devils in the podcast where they had to pick groups of monsters of certain levels.

While the rulers may be sinfully aligned, and certain members of the race tied to a sin (succubus. Lust.), on the whole, I do not think that that sin-themes will be their core organizational pole.

I suppose it was one avenue they could have explored.

Devils were made by a dark god, who they slew and seized the powers of; as directly created beings of the will of a deity, I think that that will be their thematic and organizational type. "What role did I fill for the fallen deity".

I suppose there are some classic angelic roles that could be converted (or should that be perverted?) like the Herald, Standard Bearer, Soldier and so forth. But then, what the heck was the succubus before the 'fall'.

Maybe it will be, but it seems a lot more strained.

Your idea on how they'll handle the devils or mine do you mean?

 

[Lackhand]

Well I wonder how they will deal with Angels directly in 4E. They have already mentioned the Angel of Vengeance and I seem to recall they mentioned one of the Devils in the podcast where they had to pick groups of monsters of certain levels.

I (obviously) wonder this as well.

I suppose there are some classic angelic roles that could be converted (or should that be perverted?) like the Herald, Standard Bearer, Soldier and so forth. But then, what the heck was the succubus before the 'fall'.

I did say dark god -- they more or less still have the same role. Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss!

Your idea on how they'll handle the devils or mine do you mean?

I meant the sin-specific breakdown, it's a lot weaker and less thematic than your demonic one. Demons are elemental, devils are tricksy, humanoid plotters steeped in malice and intrigue, so I'd expect them to be modeled after bits of feudalism, or positions in an army (or church! Basically, pick your hierarchy!), and so on.

The sin thing works, but I think it's a whole kettle of worms they don't want to get into. You have religious difficulties, you have game-design difficulties ("This is Sloth. He should be as frightening as Wrath, and there should be a reason for them to be roughly as powerful."), and I think the devil breakdown you posited was shaky.

I don't necessarily like mine better, mind you -- it was just an off-the-cuff, other idea. I'd be surprised if I'm right

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Dunamin!

I can see what you’re trying to do here, Krust, and it’s truly fascinating, but I think one of the general design philosophies in 4E is to downplay starting-points where you fill a slot in an overarching pattern (for instance, by ditching the cosmological symmetry elements). Good show, nonetheless.

I thought the design philosophy was to 'paint over' existing overarching patterns, rather than not have any pattern at all.

However, I also think that devils generally will not be themed over individual sins. Besides the point that there are only 7 deadly sins but 9 layers of Hell, I don’t see any of the sins characterizing, say, Dispater better than “paranoia”.

Well who says Dispater is in 4E, who says there are 9 Hells in 4E...other than Dante that is...

As for Dispater's 'sin' given that he rarely if ever ventures from his Iron Tower, sloth could be a good fit.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Lackhand!

I (obviously) wonder this as well.

I'm very curious about the power of the Solar or even if the Solar exists in this new era.

I did say dark god -- they more or less still have the same role. Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss!

I meant the sin-specific breakdown, it's a lot weaker and less thematic than your demonic one. Demons are elemental, devils are tricksy, humanoid plotters steeped in malice and intrigue, so I'd expect them to be modeled after bits of feudalism, or positions in an army (or church! Basically, pick your hierarchy!), and so on.

You can have the feudalism with the sins, just like 4E has roles and power sources.

The sin thing works, but I think it's a whole kettle of worms they don't want to get into. You have religious difficulties,

Right enough. They changed the PHB cover because of the Tiefling, so they are a bit sensitive to that sort of thing.

you have game-design difficulties ("This is Sloth. He should be as frightening as Wrath, and there should be a reason for them to be roughly as powerful."),

Well theres no need for them to be equally power as long as they were on the same tier, and by having multiple tiers for each demonic sin we have multiple possible devils, so you get a good spread.

and I think the devil breakdown you posited was shaky.

All I could come up with off the top of my head.

I don't necessarily like mine better, mind you -- it was just an off-the-cuff, other idea. I'd be surprised if I'm right

 

[pemerton]

Just a minor point - W&M (pp 66, 73) strongly implies that Pit Fiends will be in, will be Devils, and will be differentiated mores strongly from Balors (eg by always having a retinue with them).

Also, on p 76 it referes to Asmodeus picking 8 of the mightiest devils to rule Hell's layers - this suggests that the 9 Hells remain so.

 

[FourthBear]

Also, on p 76 it referes to Asmodeus picking 8 of the mightiest devils to rule Hell's layers - this suggests that the 9 Hells remain so.

I don't mind keeping the Nine layers, but I hope that the new origins and differentiation have writers use devils more in adventures and campaigns. Maybe it's just the last few years, but it seems like lately demons and the Abyss get all the love. I suspect a lot of that is that the Abyss is much more of a open sandbox for new stuff. Want to create your own demon lord? No problem, you can even create a whole new layer of the Abyss to call your own at the same time! However, the Nine Hells are limited to, well the nine Hells and nine specific planar rulers. You can always add new diabolic nobility (The Duke of Irritation), but I think for most writers that's not the same as being able to put in your very own demon lord.