Harn

[Olive]

I'm currently playing in a Harn game using modified 2e rules. Actually, it's not a Harnworld game, it's a homebrew setting. It's fun enough - the lack of anything except a "hit him" option in attach is a bit dull, but the choices for defenders are good. And I like the healing rules.

But I can't comment on the setting itself as I haven't read any of the setting stuff.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I did a search on my DVD RPG PDF archives and turned up a D20 conversion for Harn. I may have to give a try.

Just downloaded that. Interesting. Not great, by any means, but interesting. I like the six colours of magic and that stuff - cute.

I've used bits of Harn setting material for other games, by the way (I'm in that category.)

 

[jdrakeh]

Just downloaded that. Interesting. Not great, by any means, but interesting. I like the six colours of magic and that stuff - cute.

I think that trying to convert the HarnMaster rules to Standard d20 ala D&D is a fruitless endeavor. Having recently read the HarnMaster adventure 100 Bushels of Rye, I think it illustrates beautifully the divide between world assumptions that both systems make at the mechanical level. In 100 Bushels of Rye, a single Troll is fearsome enough to have been worshipped as a demon for decades by a tribe of savage warriors, shut down operations at a local mine, and terrorize a feudal Manor and its village very effectively.

A single, solitary, humanoid monster.

When was the last time that a single primitive humanoid in D&D was possessed of that much awesome power? Never. That's when. Harn (the setting) simply has some default assumptions that don't parse well with Standard d20 mechanically. HarnMaster was specifically designed to represent these assumptions mechanically. Naturally, you can use D&D to play in Harn but unless you're implementing a large number of house rules, what you'll end up with will look more like D&D with Harn place names than anything resembling HarnWorld as-written (IME, anyhow).

In HarnWorld, things like disease are a real threat, monsters are so ultra-rare that one of them can terroize an entire countryside, and (unless things are played very safe) any men or women who actively seek out large, dark, cavern systems full of monsters aren't going to live very long. The HarnWorld mechanics reflect these realities of the setting, whereas Standard d20 is pretty much at the opposite end of the spectrum (that said, Grim Tales works well with all of the lethality options cranked up).

Earlier editions of D&D might work a bit better but the default classes don't really fit (Clerics are the biggest issue, as most priests in HarnWorld aren't the spell-wielding, martial, badasses of D&D) and eternally escalating HPs are problematic. Honestly, I think that each of the earlier D&D editions comes complete with its own strengths and weaknesses when it comes to representing HarnWorld as-written, though it seems that either OD&D (1974) or AD&D 2e may require the least tweaking (that's a snap value judgement BTW, not a thoroughly researched theory).

 

[Aus_Snow]

When was the last time that a single primitive humanoid in D&D was possessed of that much awesome power?

That last time I tried to run D&D - house ruled like bug**** crazy - in a similar style to some of what you're describing in your post. Not in 'Harn', incidentally, but actually another setting 'house ruled' to an equally crazy degree. It um, kind of worked. Fun, sure. Coherent? Not in all ways at all times.

You're right though - totally different assumptions, and so forth. I never expected a 'd20 Harn' supplement to work. . . and yeah, neither of the ones I just got, does. I just collect bizarre PDFs (as well as some seriously useful ones) quite regularly. From time to time, one of the really oddball ones will trigger an idea, or unwittingly offer up part of itself for some seemingly incompatible campaign's digestion and assimilation. Mwahaha.

I still owe it to myself to try some Harn as is - as a player though, thanks. I'll have to go bug that guy with all that stuff. . .


Just caught your edit there - why 2e (over say 1e?) OD&D, I sorta get, despite my limited exposure to it. Yeah I know, snap judgement. Just curious though. . .

 

[jdrakeh]

Just caught your edit there - why 2e (over say 1e?) OD&D, I sorta get, despite my limited exposure to it. Yeah I know, snap judgement. Just curious though. . .

OD&D because all you really have to do is remove Clerics as a class and use the Chainmail combat rules. Also, even if you use HPs, the overall progression rate is fairly slow and so the rapid escalation of HPs isn't the issue that it tends to be in AD&D. A

AD&D 2e because there were actual books published for AD&D2e (the Player's Options books) that introduced fully functional and playtested rules for ratcheting up lethality and toning down magic. AD&D1e simply didn't have most of that work done for you.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

Originally posted by jdrakeh
When was the last time that a single primitive humanoid in D&D was possessed of that much awesome power? Never. That's when. Harn (the setting) simply has some default assumptions that don't parse well with Standard d20 mechanically. HarnMaster was specifically designed to represent these assumptions mechanically.

Hmm, I suppose using Iron Heroes would be a better approach.

 

[jdrakeh]

Hmm, I suppose using Iron Heroes would be a better approach.

No, not really. IH is much lower magic that Standard d20, yes, but the PCs are still magnitudes more powerful than the typical HarnMaster PC and monsters, though not as commonplace as they are in D&D, aren't quite the menace that they are in HM, either. HarnMaster is not a Heroic Fantasy RPG. Really, any system that places PCs on a plateau far above that of normal mortals by default is going to be an awkward fit for HarnWorld at best.

That said, the two systems that seem to have been tried and found to closely mirror the conventions of Harn are GURPS and Hero. I see several non-HarnMaster players who post about successfully using those systems to explore HarnWorld without altering its base assumptions much (if at all). Of d20 systems, I really think Grim Tales is the closest fit (and I have used it, though even GT left a bit to be desired in the 'heroes as normal people doing fantastic stuff' department).

In many ways, HM is the fantasy equivalent of CoC (without the going crazy in the face of weirdness bit). It's about heroism earned by deed, not bestowed by game mechanics. PCs in HM are, by default, very mortal and not much different from everybody else in the world.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

Is there an online source where I can purchase Harn? I'd really be interested in comparing it to other systems now.

I do have Grim Tales, so you may be right about that.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Is there an online source where I can purchase Harn?

You can get it straight from the source, or there are other places it crops up too. Noble Knight, perhaps. Amazon, most likely.

 

[JoseFreitas]

(...)

The ‘worst’ recent year for releases (I’m defining ‘recent’ as: since 2000) was 2006, which had only three releases from CGI and one from Kelestia. Most years it’s 6+ articles.
Of the CGI products one, Gardiren, is, probably at the top end of CGI prices: $19.99 for 38 loose leaf sheets detailing a town & castle. It was all new material.

The outrageous price of $30-$40 for a binder with ‘a few dozen punched sheets in it’ presumably refers to one of the Kingdom Modules. The two available are each $29.99, the smaller (Kanday) is 52 pages.

Most of the stuff coming out is NEW. A lot of it was based on old, out of print material. But, the Kelestia stuff is ALL new and the CGI stuff, for the past two years has been ALL NEW.

The last thing which could possibly be described as a ‘reissue of older books’ was City of Tashal. It took a 12 page article from two Out of Print publications (Cities of Hârn and Son of Cities) and turned it into a 70 page highly detailed city. That’s over 50 pages of NEW material. Fan work has further expanded Tashal to over 100 pages!

We should agree to disagree, then. I won't go into all the details, you can read them at the following link, where I discussed it with other fans. I still stand by my original opinion. The "new" modules do not contain a lot of new material, subtract a lot of articles from the older Kindgom modules, and are outrageously expensive. And I am not even going into the whole three or two holes binders. Still, I do OWN almost every single product ever produced for Harn, which sort of gives me the right to bitch about them, I guess... It probably means I should go and buy Tashal, then...

http://www.lythia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=7172&p=95061#p95061

On the schedule, I will defer to your knowledge. I would add though, that sometimes "releases" is a loose sheaf of 12-20 pages, a pretty light product. But take my criticisms as the ramblings of someone who loves the setting and would REALLY like it to be treated better. I've said it before, but I think that if it was to survive, some sort of "real" sourcebbok should come out compiling a lot of this material. But I guess it's probably not a priority for Columbia.

I have never bought Kelestia's products because I have a sort of "cultural bias" against PDF-only products, although I have been tempted to buy the Bestiary and Chelemby.
I am very sorry about NRC. That's always horrible news.

As for the whole adaptability of Harn to various systems. I would agree that Harn is low magic, and perhaps low-heroics... but you can play Harn with D20 or AD&D or whatever. This has been extensively discussed by fans at Lythia. Of the D20 products I would reccommend using Game of Thrones, but that's just an opinion. If ou play with D20 or AD&D you will need to do lots of adaptations, and it won't be the regular Harn world... so what? Every world changes when taken over by a GM. It will still be a kickass world, especially if you tone down the magic and so on. But you can have more monsters, more magic than the published material and still use it.