D&D 5E Is the Wild magic Sorcerer as terrible as it seems?

[The Crimson Binome]

the only giant mistake was the Wizard write "DM can have you roll"... if was written "every time..., roll in Wild Magic Surge", than Wild sorcerer would work as it should and would be one of most fun subclass of all.

If it worked every time, then it would often be a smart move for a sorcerer to make it happen under controlled circumstances whenever there was sufficient downtime to engineer those circumstance (e.g. put on your fireball-proof suit and stand 100 feet away from the rest of the party). By giving the control directly to the DM, it lets them veto that particular flavor of cheese (which isn't behavior that you want to encourage for a wild mage), while still letting it work the rest of the time (whenever a mishap might actually matter).

 

[mellored]

Without surges, and at low level, yes, they are kind of weak. Though still better than the beastmaster ranger.

With surges, and at high level, they are arguably the most powerful class in the game. Especially 14+. Getting advantage on everything, bend luck to improve things even more, and the a slew of free spell effects.
Also, try and pair with an ancient paladin. Who really helps middigate your downside and can punch you when you turn into a pot or sheep, and can crit-smiting held creatures.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Bend Luck? You mean, spending 2 sorcery points to give a creature -1d4? Seems like a waste of sorc. points, but I want to believe you. Is it that powerful?

Yes, because you always have the feature, but you pay for it only when you choose.

E.g. the party wizard casts Confusion on a bunch of bad guys like Slaads. His DC is 16, and you're pretty sure the Slaads have -2 to Wisdom saves, but also advantage. So they need an 18+ to save--except that any Slaad who rolls a 18+ will get Bend Luck'ed back down to 14-17. Instead of 28% of the Slaads resisting confusion every round, only approximately 7.25% of them will resist it each round, and you'll spend on average (0.28 * 2) 0.56 sorcery points per round keeping them Confused.

If it were possible to give your buddy +4 to Int, to raise his DC to 18, there would still be 10% of the Slaads breaking free every round. Bend Luck in this case is actually better than +4 to Int, and as long as you don't stretch it too thin it applies to every spellcaster in the party. The down side is that it costs your reaction, so it works on a tanky chassis like a Paladin/Sorcerer who doesn't need Shield spells that badly, better than on a pure sorcerer chassis. Coincidentally that is also the chassis on which Tides of Chaos and Wild Surge work best.

You can also use Bend Luck to boost other PCs, e.g. to help the wizard not fail his con save against a Banshee's wail.

Wild Sorc is not the "best" or most powerful class in the PHB by any metric, but it's a decent class, and a lot of what it has going for it is tied up in Bend Luck, and to a lesser extent Tides of Chaos.

 

[dco]

If you don't want to take risks, you aren't playing a wild sorcerer, anyway.

Or perhaps you want some limited risk, not all people see the world white or black.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Both these suggestions would solve the problem without "forcing" Wild Mages upon those DMs that are dead set against them. In the first case, both player and DM would go into an agreement to play a Surge-less Wild Mage with open eyes (perhaps gaining freebies elsewhere). In the second, the DM would have to choose between either no Wild Mage or a good one (or, as I'm sure some of you think "either no Wild Mage or an obnoxiously disruptive one").

They could also have presented a lesser table that skips 7-10, 13-16, 27-28, 41-42, 49-50, 65-66, 71-78, 81-84, 95-96. Lots of cosmetic and fun stuff, no more massive combat wreckers.

And they could even have presented the current table as a DM option. Preferably with scaling effects instead of point blank fireballs that wipe out low level parties and are irrelevant to high ones.

 

[Blue]

The text simply fails to explain to Dungeon Masters that to achieve any resemblance to parity with the Draconic subclass, a Wild Mage needs to gain his rerolls through Tides of Chaos over and over again. There needs to be Wild Surges all the time. This is not apparent, and so many DMs decide (without a trace of malice) that there should be "the occasional" or "some" or "whenever appropriate" Wild Surges rather than the constant surges the Wild Mage needs to compete.
...
The issue (and this thread) comes about when a DM allows the class, but does not allow Tides of Chaos after each and every non-cantrip spell the Wild Mage casts.

The broken part is making a subclass feature DM approved rather than the subclass itself. This creates a trap where a player can be saddled with an underperforming choice through a well-meaning DM's decisions.

Absolutely agree. Actually had a discussion with my Wednesday DM about this earlier in the month. His issue was "I don't want to have to keep trak fo when to let you surge, I have other things to do", and when I suggested your suggestion of "can I surge every spell" he was all for it.

Unfortunately, we have an occasional player who's already playing a sorcerer, so if my character bites it I probably won't play a wild mage. But oh, that's how I would want to do so.

 

[transtemporal]

Bend Luck? You mean, spending 2 sorcery points to give a creature -1d4? Seems like a waste of sorc. points, but I want to believe you. Is it that powerful?

Yeah, its pretty good when you absolutely must land a spell. Heighten + bend luck makes it almost certain to happen. Plus, there's a certain amount of satisfaction when the monster makes a save by one or two only to fail when it comes into play.

 

[Ancalagon]

The text simply fails to explain to Dungeon Masters that to achieve any resemblance to parity with the Draconic subclass, a Wild Mage needs to gain his rerolls through Tides of Chaos over and over again. There needs to be Wild Surges all the time. This is not apparent, and so many DMs decide (without a trace of malice) that there should be "the occasional" or "some" or "whenever appropriate" Wild Surges rather than the constant surges the Wild Mage needs to compete.

.....

Then you have other underdeveloped features, such as very few attack spells that can take (literal) advantage of Tides of Chaos, and essentially no spells actually themed "wild" (that a Wild Mage would have some control over differently from other spellcasters), but that's another matter.

The lack of specific wild magic spells disappointed me I have to admit.

. My argument is that for a Wild Mage to compete against a Draconic colleague, she needs to use Tides of Chaos once for every spell she casts. That's right, if the sorcerer has, say, 15 spell slots, she has the capacity to gain advantage sixteen* times during the day, and she needs to use every single one of them.
*) not counting various other ways to cast more spells, such as Sorcery Points

But Tides of Chaos state once per long rest...? Yes, but it also empowers the Dungeon Master to have you Wild Surge after casting a spell. And this is the core of the trap.

This is sufficuently hidden so many players don't realize they need to make sure their DM is onboard before choosing the subclass. And that many Wild Surges goes against the instincts of many DMs. The end result is that yes, it is likely the Wild Mage is "as terrible as it seems", even though many posters might post anectdotal experiences to the contrary.

This is the entire issue, boiled down to the basics.

That these discussions tend to happen AFTER the class choice has been made. Most people would think it much less painful if they could have this kind of discussion BEFORE the class choice is made.

The PHB would have been infinitely more helpful if it clearly helped DMs and players realize what the stakes are and what the class relies on to work. The PHb is usually great when it comes to spelling out what a class is and does, and what is expected of it. Not so with the Wild Mage.

Player: "Okay, so you're not comfortable with a Wild Mage spewing Surges out her ears?"
DM: "No"
Player: "That's completely fine. No problem. In completely unrelated news, I'll choose Draconic for this game."
DM: "Great, everybody's happy"

WotC was aware there was at least some players vocally against having to play with wild surges. I can't really argue against that position. Bringing along a Wild Mage is inherently much more risky than any other character class. You can't depend on an ally that could turn into a flower pot at any key moment. And having a TPK even once because the Wild Mage dropped a Fireball on himself is not what everybody considers good clean fun.

So.

Their solution - to do it optional (or, more specifically "DM approved") isn't wrong per se.

It's how they did it optional (or, more specifically, what they made optional) that is the big mistake.

Either they would have had to make it much more clear that a Wild Mage without Tides of Chaos, and lots of them, is a neutered Wild Mage (a Wild Mage operating below maximum potential)...

... or they should have made the entire subclass optional, rather than just one (key) aspect of it.

Yup. It's a big design mistake, it's one that's easy to miss, and it's one that's easily understood *why* they did it that way.

It's almost as if they wanted to give the GM a "way out" so s/he could feel free to "dial down the wild surges" if they realized they didn't like the player using the feature so much. But that's not fair to the player is it? It should be all or none...

 

[CTurbo]

Well if I were to play a Wild Sorcerer, I would want to roll from the table after every single spell, but alas, that subclass just REALLY isn't for me. I'd much prefer the extra damage and toughness of the Draconic Sorcerer.

So overall, I see that a properly played Wild Sorcerer is not quite as bad as it seems, and the player and DM in my group are the main reasons that specific Wild Sorcerer seems so weak, but I still feel like the Wild path is inferior to the others.

 

[Tainted Powers]

So overall, I see that a properly played Wild Sorcerer is not quite as bad as it seems, and the player and DM in my group are the main reasons that specific Wild Sorcerer seems so weak, but I still feel like the Wild path is inferior to the others.

When you compare Wild to others like Draconic, Storm, and so on, it does come short when it comes to combat/DMG output. If my role in the party would be to dis out as much DPR as possible I would not choose Wild. It is too unpredictably for that. But if you play a Buff/Debuff support role, specially when multiclassing with Lore Bard (Cutting Word), then Tides of Chaos, Bend Luck, and even later on Controlled Chaos will be the best choice. Applying Bane to a group of enemies and making sure they fail in everything they do, that is just as effective as blowing things up.

Again I think this comes down to your play style and role in the party. As my party has an Evoker dedicated to turning our enemies into ash and rubble, this luckily leaves me to be a very effective support specializing in debuffs, with the occasional fluff of being immune to alcohol and winning every bet in all the taverns we go to!

And yes Bend Luck is pretty good, and not just to debuff our foolish enemies (how dare they oppose us anyway XD), but I found that saving said Evoker from certain doom happened more times then I care to remember.

So again on a final note Wild is a different play style and really shines if you play a support/debuff/buff role. (Also summoning a Unicorn when you cast a simple Shield spell is too much fun to pass up for me! )