Monks and Stunning Fist

[pbd]

Is the stunning fist feat viable for monks at higher level?

a second level monk, with 14 wisdom, has 2 stunning fist attempts with a fort DC of 13. This seems to be OK, fort saves arent usually too high at this point for most opponents.

But, a tenth level monk, with 16 wisdom, has 10 stunning fist attampts with a fort DC of 18. The save seems a little low at that level. Is it still viable?

Has anyone had experience using stunning fist at higher level and, if so, was it useful?

Just something that I am wondering about as I may play a monk in my next campaign, my guess is starting around 6th level (or, if death occurs, I may introduce a monk 11 or 12). I know the grappling monk is fairly commonj, but am looking at the options.

Thanks,
Peter

 

[Infiniti2000]

I believe its useful, especially characters with low Fort saves. DC 18 is nontrivial for wizards, etc. at 10th level (base +3, then plus some small Con bonus). DC 18 is also not a joke to a fighter. Say a fighter with a Con of 16, Fort save +10 he will miss 40% of the time. Remember that the monk can try this every round, as basically a free attempt combined with his fists. What has happened IMC before, I had a monk stun the fighter in his first attack (admittedly somewhat lucky in the attack roll and the failed save). The fighter drops his weapon. The monk, not using flurry of blows yet, eschews his full attack action and performs a move equivalent to pick up the fighter's weapon. Resume butt-kicking.

 

[shilsen]

As Infiniti2000 said. Don't forget to pick up Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) if you're going this route, for an extra +2 to the DC.

 

[pbd]

Thanks for the info. I was thinking it seemed OK, but wasn't sure about the DC and wanted some "eye-witness" reports. But at 20 (5 for lvl, 3 for wis, 2 for ability focus) at lvl 10, it seems otent enough to be effective.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Make sure the DM will allow PCs to take ability focus, if that would affect your character decision.

 

[mostholy2]

Isn't ability focus a monster feat? Is that even available for players? Adding an extra +2 to the DC, then adding rapid stunning seems awfully abusive.

 

[Belbarid]

I believe its useful, especially characters with low Fort saves. DC 18 is nontrivial for wizards, etc. at 10th level (base +3, then plus some small Con bonus). DC 18 is also not a joke to a fighter. Say a fighter with a Con of 16, Fort save +10 he will miss 40% of the time. Remember that the monk can try this every round, as basically a free attempt combined with his fists. What has happened IMC before, I had a monk stun the fighter in his first attack (admittedly somewhat lucky in the attack roll and the failed save). The fighter drops his weapon. The monk, not using flurry of blows yet, eschews his full attack action and performs a move equivalent to pick up the fighter's weapon. Resume butt-kicking.

To offer a dissenting opinion, I've definitely seen a point in high-level campaigns where Stunning Blow is basically worthless.

In fact, I just left a high-level campaign where we rarely, if ever, bothered to use anything with a saving throw, as our opponants routinely had higher saves that the save DC's we could muster. Playing a high-level Monk with a Stunning Fist save DC in the mid-twenties, I would routinely hear "Yeah, that wizard would have to roll multiple 1's to fail that save..." (using the open-ended die rolling rules).

Now maybe that was just the campaign, but I never bothered to use stunning blow toward the end.

 

[Infiniti2000]

An example 20th level wizard with a Con of 14 (already high, mind you), bear's endurance, and a cloak of resistance +5, has a +6+4+5 on the Fort save, total +15. If by mid-twenties you mean 25, then the wizard fails it in just under half the time (45%). I have no freakin' idea how that wizard is gonna get another +10 to his Fort save. I don't even wanna know 'cause that is MOST certainly way way way in the extreme of cases.

On the other hand, I don't know what 'stunning blow' is.

 

[Crimson_Manticore]

The thing that helps it retain its value is that it doesn’t “cost” you anything in terms of actions to use it. I’ve played an epic level monk and I used it quite often, though generally not on big bruiser types. Sure, they make their save more often than not, but you haven’t really lost anything to give it a try, and sometimes you get lucky with it. At high levels you have enough of them that you could use it almost every round if you wanted to, so your chances of at least one or two failed saves during an encounter is not all that bad.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Isn't ability focus a monster feat?

No. Ability Focus is a general feat.