RPGs, new games and originality

TheAlkaizer

Game Designer
Alright, so this is not a rant. It's something that'd been nagging in the back of my mind for several months now and I've wanted to exchange with someone to kind of understand my own thoughts and feelings about the matter.

I've been playing D&D since about 2000 with 3rd edition. I've only recently (2019) jumped into other RPGs (and I jumped pretty hard). I bought dozens of other RPGs and dozens of zines. I've delved hard in the OSR scene and the following NuSR movement. I've played about three to four new games each year but my library is growing pretty quick.

My first emotion was close to ecstasy. There seemed to be an endless amount of content online. So many games, so many settings. So many original ideas when you look at all these colorful colors and premises. And I did find some gems. Games and zines that are really different; they play different, they feel different and they lead to different experiences. Different dice mechanics, progression mechanics, narrative systems, etc.

However, there's one but.

Now that I've done a solid survey of the land, my emotion is slowly shifting to disappointment at the lack of originality in so many games.

5E
I love 5E. It's a good game, I played an uncountable number of hours of it. However, I was a bit turned off by the sheer quantity of 5E books that came out on Kickstarter every week. At first I dove in some of them, but very quickly it felt to me that except a new coat of finish, it was just more of the same thing. Most books often promised a different genre or setting (horror, grim fantasy, steampunk) with some gorgeous art, but looking at samples it just felt unimaginative. Which statblock can I copy paste, put a different art and tweak a number or two. Very rarely did I see some really innovative ideas. Things might have changed, I jump off the Kickstarter wagon about two years ago, but that's how I felt at the time.

The current situation with the OGL and the many companies jumping in to make clones of 5E is no different to me. I already bought these books some eight years ago. For me, the differences presented are not big enough for many of these projects to be considered a new game.

OSR
OSR had crazy promise, and I did find so many interesting things. But I cannot understate how many people release games patting themselves in the back, and when I look at the content, they've basically copy pasted the same framework that most of these games use, sometimes changing semantic, of having a few numbers being lower, or having three more things in the equipment list. This is not a new game, this is barely even a supplement at this point.

I'm not going to name anything, but I bought a small zine recently. And it basically had renamed Hit Points to Vitality, it lowered a few numbers because it was supposed to be grim and it renamed the basic B/X classes to things that were much darker in tone. This is not creativity to me.

I realized that even though there were a lot of interesting elements in the scene, it was basically a whole demographics that just wanted to keep playing the game they played 43 years ago; and the scene keeps on reinventing the same game over and over with slight changes.

I'm going to keep on looking at the OSR scene because there's some great stuff. But, my perspective of it changed.

NuSR
For those unaware, NuSR is an appellation that designates a movement of game design originated in the OSR but moved away from it. NuSR games tend to adhere to the same core principles that OSR games do, but they try to modernize their framework, mechanics and to try new things. Examples are: Cairn, Into the Odd, Electric Bastionlands, etc.

So, logically after my slight fall with the OSR scene, I discovered the NuSR scene and I thought "Ah, that's where all the innovation went." However, I quickly realized that even though, once again, there is a good deal of innovation happening there; there is also so much products that are just a rehashing of the same elements, barely changed except that basing themselves off B/X they base themselves off two or three very popular frameworks (see examples above).

Conclusion
I don't want to look overly negative. But this voyage has been one of excitement as much as it has been one of disappointment. The scene is less creative and innovative than I thought. Most of what I see are clones of games we already have and I just can't be excited for that. It's already something that plagues the industry I work in (video games) and for a while TTRPGs were my creative escape.

Anyone else feeling like this? Or feeling like I'm missing something? Did you felt the same way but changed your perspective?
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Or feeling like I'm missing something?

5e, OSR, nuTSR...

You seem to be missing all the games that are not based in D&D. You're missing The Cortex games, the Fate games, the BitD games, the PbtA games, the Gumshoe games, the Cypher games, the WoD games, the 2d10 games, the Savage World games, and the games on bespoke engines as well....
 

TheAlkaizer

Game Designer
5e, OSR, nuTSR...

You seem to be missing all the games that are not based in D&D. You're missing The Cortex games, the Fate games, the BitD games, the PbtA games, the Gumshoe games, the Cypher games, the WoD games, the 2d10 games, the Savage World games, and the games on bespoke engines as well....
You're right! I left them out because buying full-fledged games from big publishers, sometimes IPs that have been alive for almost as long as D&D led me to discover some very different games. Just in the last four years I bought and/or played things like Burning Wheel, Vampire V5, Lancer, Orbital Blues, Death in Space, Zweihander, Symbaroum, Tales from the Loop, Modiphius' Conans books, etc.

And there's still a ton of games I haven't touched.

But yes, if I bought some edition of Ars Magicka tomorrow, I'd get something that's really different. But I haven't seen nowhere as much 3rd party content for any of the games I've tried and bought then everything that's orbiting D&D. It's just that it felt to me that the OGL and the 3rd party products were kind of a promise of things being done a different way, and my realization is that its not.
 

You're right! I left them out because buying full-fledged games from big publishers, sometimes IPs that have been alive for almost as long as D&D led me to discover some very different games. Just in the last four years I bought and/or played things like Burning Wheel, Vampire V5, Lancer, Orbital Blues, Death in Space, Zweihander, Symbaroum, Tales from the Loop, Modiphius' Conans books, etc.

And there's still a ton of games I haven't touched.

But yes, if I bought some edition of Ars Magicka tomorrow, I'd get something that's really different. But I haven't seen nowhere as much 3rd party content for any of the games I've tried and bought then everything that's orbiting D&D. It's just that it felt to me that the OGL and the 3rd party products were kind of a promise of things being done a different way, and my realization is that its not.
The OGL was always about securing market dominance. It has had many benefits, but it took a dying product, and not only brought it to massive prominence through the open elements and good marketing, but established itself as a lingua Franca for RPG design. Upcoming designers learn from OGL systems, release OGL systems, and feed the consumer, who is already primed to accept a glut of OGL content, a steady stream of variations of OGL books which promise to do things better while being compatible.

YMMV on how much D&D-created OGL content and games. I’ve always been torn by it, as WotC doesn’t quite release what I want, and so I have alternatives for that specific type of game that I enjoy. However, I also miss the variety from the 90s.

NOTE: I used OGL as shorthand for content created originally by WotC for D&D and released through OGL and now CC.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
It's just that it felt to me that the OGL and the 3rd party products were kind of a promise of things being done a different way, and my realization is that its not.

I don't think that was a fair expectation. The OGL provided a shared basis. If everyone is working off the same ruleset, the same basic operating principles, one should expect a lot of sameness.
 

aramis erak

Legend
However, there's one but.

Now that I've done a solid survey of the land, my emotion is slowly shifting to disappointment at the lack of originality in so many games.
Not possible.
The database at RPGGeek has 146 pages of 100 RPGs each, tho' a number of those are new editions of others.
At 14.5K+, there's no possible way you've done a solid survey.


That's a VERY narrow survey. It may seem broad to you, but those terms are used mostly for a pretty narrow band of mechanics.
You're missing the following major categories of Mechanics:
  • PBTA/AWE - the Apocalypse World Engine and the various games that, with a variety of fidelity to Vincent Baker's vision.
  • The dicepool driven semi-trad - Orkworld, Burning Wheel, L5R 1e to 4e.
    All three have leanings towards narrativism.
  • The symbolic dice games: FFG's WFRP 3e, FFG's Star Wars, FFG's L5R 5e
  • The hybrid narrative/dicepool Storyteller system, most noted for Vampire, but I adapted it for Traveller, and WWG (Publishers of the original and second editions of the World of Darkness) also used it for the very fun Street Fighter: The Storytelling Game. They have a few concessions towards Narrativism, and their less than focused mechanics are part of the impetus for the Forge. They're still going. They incentivise certain
  • The assorted YAPS (Yet Another Percentile System) -- Most of Chaosium's games; some older FFG RPGs, FASA Star Trek, Everything Palladium except Amber)
  • Any of the dice-less point pushers: Warriors RPG, Marvel Universe
  • Decision Trees: Theatrix, Amber, Some of CORPS.
  • Roll for who decides: Just two games I've seen: Houses of the Blooded and Blood & Honor. Both by John Wick,
The semi-trad dicepools all have narrativist elements, Orkworld and L5R are fairly light on them in mechanics, but reading the whole of the rules, they're important, tho', when they do show up.
Burning Wheel is what happens when a munchkin decides to go story first with a dice pool and forge ideas added. The rules aren't laser focused, but they give the open elements a LOT of teeth.

Conclusion
I don't want to look overly negative. But this voyage has been one of excitement as much as it has been one of disappointment. The scene is less creative and innovative than I thought. Most of what I see are clones of games we already have and I just can't be excited for that. It's already something that plagues the industry I work in (video games) and for a while TTRPGs were my creative escape.

Anyone else feeling like this? Or feeling like I'm missing something? Did you felt the same way but changed your perspective?
At the end of the day, there's little room for true innovation; the same influences lead to the similar outcomes...
 
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Yora

Legend
I just read the rules for the new Dragonbane game this week and it's derivative to the point of being a classic Fantasy Heartbreaker.
But I actually really like it because of that. It's mechanics from various games I already know, but a combination of elements that I like, without the aspects I dislike about the games they come from. Mechanically, it has zero originality.

But I don't really see that as a problem. I don't think there is a need to reinvent the wheel. Originality in play comes from new and imaginative premises for campaigns, adventures, and settings. The game mechanics are typically just the tools to make those other parts happen. Typically I'm just looking for new RPGs as tools that work better for my use cases. The only cases I can think of where different mechanics inspired new ways to play campaigns are Apocalypse World and Blades in the Dark. Everything else is just different mechanics to resolve the same basic tasks.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Alright, so this is not a rant. It's something that'd been nagging in the back of my mind for several months now and I've wanted to exchange with someone to kind of understand my own thoughts and feelings about the matter.

I've been playing D&D since about 2000 with 3rd edition. I've only recently (2019) jumped into other RPGs (and I jumped pretty hard). I bought dozens of other RPGs and dozens of zines. I've delved hard in the OSR scene and the following NuSR movement. I've played about three to four new games each year but my library is growing pretty quick.

My first emotion was close to ecstasy. There seemed to be an endless amount of content online. So many games, so many settings. So many original ideas when you look at all these colorful colors and premises. And I did find some gems. Games and zines that are really different; they play different, they feel different and they lead to different experiences. Different dice mechanics, progression mechanics, narrative systems, etc.

However, there's one but.

Now that I've done a solid survey of the land, my emotion is slowly shifting to disappointment at the lack of originality in so many games.

5E
I love 5E. It's a good game, I played an uncountable number of hours of it. However, I was a bit turned off by the sheer quantity of 5E books that came out on Kickstarter every week. At first I dove in some of them, but very quickly it felt to me that except a new coat of finish, it was just more of the same thing. Most books often promised a different genre or setting (horror, grim fantasy, steampunk) with some gorgeous art, but looking at samples it just felt unimaginative. Which statblock can I copy paste, put a different art and tweak a number or two. Very rarely did I see some really innovative ideas. Things might have changed, I jump off the Kickstarter wagon about two years ago, but that's how I felt at the time.

The current situation with the OGL and the many companies jumping in to make clones of 5E is no different to me. I already bought these books some eight years ago. For me, the differences presented are not big enough for many of these projects to be considered a new game.

OSR
OSR had crazy promise, and I did find so many interesting things. But I cannot understate how many people release games patting themselves in the back, and when I look at the content, they've basically copy pasted the same framework that most of these games use, sometimes changing semantic, of having a few numbers being lower, or having three more things in the equipment list. This is not a new game, this is barely even a supplement at this point.

I'm not going to name anything, but I bought a small zine recently. And it basically had renamed Hit Points to Vitality, it lowered a few numbers because it was supposed to be grim and it renamed the basic B/X classes to things that were much darker in tone. This is not creativity to me.

I realized that even though there were a lot of interesting elements in the scene, it was basically a whole demographics that just wanted to keep playing the game they played 43 years ago; and the scene keeps on reinventing the same game over and over with slight changes.

I'm going to keep on looking at the OSR scene because there's some great stuff. But, my perspective of it changed.

NuSR
For those unaware, NuSR is an appellation that designates a movement of game design originated in the OSR but moved away from it. NuSR games tend to adhere to the same core principles that OSR games do, but they try to modernize their framework, mechanics and to try new things. Examples are: Cairn, Into the Odd, Electric Bastionlands, etc.

So, logically after my slight fall with the OSR scene, I discovered the NuSR scene and I thought "Ah, that's where all the innovation went." However, I quickly realized that even though, once again, there is a good deal of innovation happening there; there is also so much products that are just a rehashing of the same elements, barely changed except that basing themselves off B/X they base themselves off two or three very popular frameworks (see examples above).

Conclusion
I don't want to look overly negative. But this voyage has been one of excitement as much as it has been one of disappointment. The scene is less creative and innovative than I thought. Most of what I see are clones of games we already have and I just can't be excited for that. It's already something that plagues the industry I work in (video games) and for a while TTRPGs were my creative escape.

Anyone else feeling like this? Or feeling like I'm missing something? Did you felt the same way but changed your perspective?
Many 3pps are afraid to really innovate for financial reasons: they still want to sell their game to people who like D&D, and a lot of 5e folks want things the way WotC wants them, unfortunately.

Money is also the reason why there generally isn't a huge amount of supplementary material for non-D&D games.

Obviously there are exceptions to all of this, and what counts as innovative to one person won't to another.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Not possible.
The database at RPGGeek has 146 pages of 100 RPGs each, tho' a number of those are new editions of others.
At 14.5K+, there's no possible way you've done a solid survey.





That's a VERY narrow survey. It may seem broad to you, but those terms are used mostly for a pretty narrow band of mechanics.
You're missing the following major categories of Mechanics:
  • PBTA/AWE - the Apocalypse World Engine and the various games that, with a variety of fidelity to Vincent Baker's vision.
  • The dicepool driven semi-trad - Orkworld, Burning Wheel, L5R 1e to 4e.
    All three have leanings towards narrativism.
  • The symbolic dice games: FFG's WFRP 3e, FFG's Star Wars, FFG's L5R 5e
  • The hybrid narrative/dicepool Storyteller system, most noted for Vampire, but I adapted it for Traveller, and WWG (Publishers of the original and second editions of the World of Darkness) also used it for the very fun Street Fighter: The Storytelling Game. They have a few concessions towards Narrativism, and their less than focused mechanics are part of the impetus for the Forge. They're still going. They incentivise certain
  • The assorted YAPS (Yet Another Percentile System) -- Most of Chaosium's games; some older FFG RPGs, FASA Star Trek, Everything Palladium except Amber)
  • Any of the dice-less point pushers: Warriors RPG, Marvel Universe
  • Decision Trees: Theatrix, Amber, Some of CORPS.
  • Roll for who decides: Just two games I've seen: Houses of the Blooded and Blood & Honor. Both by John Wick,
The semi-trad dicepools all have narrativist elements, Orkworld and L5R are fairly light on them in mechanics, but reading the whole of the rules, they're important, tho', when they do show up.
Burning Wheel is what happens when a munchkin decides to go story first with a dice pool and forge ideas added. The rules aren't laser focused, but they give the open elements a LOT of teeth.


At the end of the day, there's little room for true innovation; the same influences lead to the similar outcomes...
What if you don't like narrative games, Story Now, etc? What's out there outside of D&D for that? The basic design philosophy for those games is do fundamentally different that, coming from D&D, it may very well be too big a shock to even feel like the same hobby to a long-time D&D player. I know I've bounced off those kinds of games every time I've encountered them.
 


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