(YB3) Prelimary Rules (Comments and Criticism Wanted Please?)
Mithreander
Explorer
*Just wishes he knew enough to contrubute*
*Scratches head* Huh?
*Scratches head* Huh?
Sollir Furryfoot
Explorer
Here's my suggestions for standard items for the shop, a preview of what's to come 
The LP problem I think is fixed, although I'll let Kal post the results of that discussion later.
Shop Items:
Sidenote-All Expendable items are expended instantaneously, on your action.
Your Main Inventory List can include any number of items, however your Combat Inventory List can only hold 2 (exception: see ‘Purse’ item). Your Combat Inventory list is stated in your first post in a match, along with your stats.
SP stands for Stamina Points
Er, only Kal and me know what the martyr's relic is for, but for fairness' sake we can't use it until some one else first figures out what it does
The LP problem I think is fixed, although I'll let Kal post the results of that discussion later.Shop Items:
Sidenote-All Expendable items are expended instantaneously, on your action.
Your Main Inventory List can include any number of items, however your Combat Inventory List can only hold 2 (exception: see ‘Purse’ item). Your Combat Inventory list is stated in your first post in a match, along with your stats.
SP stands for Stamina Points
Er, only Kal and me know what the martyr's relic is for, but for fairness' sake we can't use it until some one else first figures out what it does
KDLadage
Explorer
Musings from the Vagabond
Greetings. Off-line, I was asked for my thoughts on the direction that YB3 was taking. For those of you that do not know me, I am K. David Ladage and I was one of the original three-or-four people involved in the initial development of YB1 (Number47 wrote the original ideas, I wrote one of the original javascripts to generate the moves and did some of the original playtesting; the page you guys use these days for generating moves -- well, I wrote most of that stuff too...)
As things developed, I was on the committee for the development of YB2. I had a lot of disagreements with the the others; in the end, it was evident that what I saw as the future of YB and what the others saw werre two very different things. In the end, I am more than happy to admit I was wrong on that -- after all, YB2 has been around a long time. Good job to all (especially Wicht, who was the true inspiration behind the scenes).
I played YB2 (and enjoyed it) for a time. But real life (and a plethora of other factors) had my time devoted elsewhere... and so the Vagabond faded into the background (after attaining the highest rank of his path for a time... and having one of the most interesting battles even seen in the game up to that point; a three-way death-match that lasted some 15+ rounds and took out two characters for good -- one of which was Vagabond).
Anyway, enough of my day-dreaming of glory days... like I said, I was asked to come in and look at what YB3 had planned, and give some of my comments. Off-line, I gave them. Then someone asked that I post them here. And so here I go. This is a cut-n-paste (with some markup) of the final e-mail that I sent in that conversation:
Greetings. Off-line, I was asked for my thoughts on the direction that YB3 was taking. For those of you that do not know me, I am K. David Ladage and I was one of the original three-or-four people involved in the initial development of YB1 (Number47 wrote the original ideas, I wrote one of the original javascripts to generate the moves and did some of the original playtesting; the page you guys use these days for generating moves -- well, I wrote most of that stuff too...)
As things developed, I was on the committee for the development of YB2. I had a lot of disagreements with the the others; in the end, it was evident that what I saw as the future of YB and what the others saw werre two very different things. In the end, I am more than happy to admit I was wrong on that -- after all, YB2 has been around a long time. Good job to all (especially Wicht, who was the true inspiration behind the scenes).
I played YB2 (and enjoyed it) for a time. But real life (and a plethora of other factors) had my time devoted elsewhere... and so the Vagabond faded into the background (after attaining the highest rank of his path for a time... and having one of the most interesting battles even seen in the game up to that point; a three-way death-match that lasted some 15+ rounds and took out two characters for good -- one of which was Vagabond).
Anyway, enough of my day-dreaming of glory days... like I said, I was asked to come in and look at what YB3 had planned, and give some of my comments. Off-line, I gave them. Then someone asked that I post them here. And so here I go. This is a cut-n-paste (with some markup) of the final e-mail that I sent in that conversation:
well.. let me give you a link to FightClub and specificly the YB2.0 rules and also while yer in FightClub check out our newly written rules for YB3.0 that we'll start if we can get more intrest!
The rules look much as they did before. I had a lot of ideas for how YB needed to move. I can share those again, I suppose. But...
To the rules for YB3.0 and thoughts and comments: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=71025
Some things here are not to my liking. I feel that if life-points are to be added into the game, then they need to be something that is handled a bit more 'elegantly' -- in other words, that segment of the game needs to be non-judgemental. The generator can have certain key-words that generate life-point damage and total it for the move generated. No matter if you won or lost a round (to capture or lose a flag), the life point damage can be taken into consideration. I would also not make it such a low number. Perhaps up to 3 points per tier (and this can vary depending on the path chosen); I would also cap this at say... 20 points.
Additionally, since the life points can (and in my estimation, should) be generated from the move generator automatically, then a defensive number can also be generated... thus, if my move happens to be:
"The tsunami seeks underneath the glade; protects against the blood of the isle!"
And the generator is using "tsunami" and "blood" both as as offensive words, and has "protects" listed as a defensive word; then the total text of the move might read:
"The tsunami seeks underneath the glade; protects against the blood of the isle! (2/1)"
Indicating that the move deals 2 damage, and protects against 1 damage. I would have more defensive words tagged than offensive words, just to ensure you do not need so many life points that the game needs a calculator. For the generator, this is a trivial thing, as the generators were already modified once to handle additional Yen.
Then, after the judge ranks the moves (and in some variations of the game, the description of the move) the winner of a round can deal from +1 to +2 damage (depending on the amount the judge feels the move exceeds the losers). The winner captures a flag (or causes the loser to lose one)... and the life points are kept track of seperately.
Just my thoughts.
Additionally... I would have the tiers spread the abilities out further and add more tiers. The idea that you have to gain three-plus abilites each tier can be intimidating for a new player. After all, they just won 1 match, and now they have rules for several new elements they need to learn. Keep the number of abilities down a bit at each tier, and add to the number of tiers available. Also, grant them choices at each tier... and for god's sake, bring back the belt colors!
Now, as far as loosing tiers... I would borrow a concept from the league rules for Circus Maximus. This is an old Avalon Hill chariot racing game. In that game, you earned "eggs" and "dolphins" each time you were the first to complete a turn (eggs for the first turn, dolphins for the second turn), and you earned Medalions each time you won a race. These combined in interesting ways to allow you to improve your racing team.
Now, I would have two measures... one is for victories (call this one something appropriately oriental like "Meiyo" which is the Japanese word for Honor) and the other will be for losses (call this one something appropriately oriental as well, like "Fumeiyo" which is the Japanese word for Dishonor).
Now...
If you fight a match and you are victorious, look at your current number of Fumeiyo points. If Fumeiyo is currently 0, then you gain +1 Meiyo point. If, however, Fumeiyo is greater than 1, then it is reset to 0 and you do not earn +1 Meiyo point.
If you fight a match and lose, and you are not a Novice... then you earn +1 Fumeiyo point. If you ever have more Fumeiyo than Meiyo... then Fumeiyo is reset to 0 and you lose -1 Meiyo point.
Putting all of this together... you currently you have one of the YB3 tiers on the message boards listed as:
Neutral
Tier 0: Novice
Warrior
Tier 1: Signature Location, Personal/Dojo Style, Signature Style, Quick
Study
Tier 2: Signature Style, Personal/Dojo Style, Fist of Fury
Tier 3: Signature Style, Personal/Dojo Style, Great Style
Using the notes I have listed above, I would change this to:
Neutral
Tier 0 (Meiyo=0, Life=1) White Belt: Novice
Tier 1 (Meiyo=1, Life=3) Green Belt: Signature Location -or- Signature Style
Warrior
Tier 2 (Meiyo=2, Life=6) Blue Belt: Signature Location -or- Signature Style
Tier 3 (Meiyo=4, Life=9) Yellow Belt: Signature Location -or- Signature Style
Tier 4 (Meiyo=8, Life=12) Orange Belt: Dojo, Dojo Style
Tier 5 (Meiyo=12, Life=15) Red Belt: Personal Style
Tier 6 (Meiyo=16, Life=18) Black Belt: Fist of Fury
Tier 7 (Meiyo=20, Life=20) Master: Great Style
Here you have all of the standard stuff, plus Dojo at Tier 4. Once you reach Tier 4, you have the option of starting a Dojo. I would make a Dojo cost a relatively large number of Yen to open. Once opened, the Dojo Style is the ability to, at the start of a match, select a Signature Style from any of the students of thier Dojo and treat it as a signature style for that match.
In return, and thus outside of the tier structure, all of the members that join the Dojo should gain a Dojo Location (treated as a common Signature Location for all of the members of the dojo). Joining a Dojo can have any requirements that the owner of the Dojo wants it to have. Once you have a Dojo, the only way to lose it is to drop below Tier 4. It can be sold, if you wish, so that it does not fold when you drop rank, but it needs to be sold to someone that is qualified to run it -- i.e.: at least tier 4.
Fighter Registration:
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2382
This is a good thing. they were starting this just as I left the game. Good to see it continue.
hope to see you soon!
Maybe. I have to convince myself that a few of the people that I somehow offended back then would not mind my presence... and know that the game is still the fun, rather oddball thing it used to be.
K. David Ladage
"It is always easier to beg for forgiveness, than it is to ask for permission." - VAdm. Grace Hopper
Phoenix8008
First Post
I must admit that I like some of KD's ideas. Here is a quick list of the highlights:
-Dojo's costing Yen to open
-Dojo's giving a permanent Location Style to all members
-More Tiers with fewer powers per Tier
-More powers that are chosen from a small list instead of just assigned
This last one has always been a favorite of mine and is why I also enjoy YBA lots. But just having an option here or there every couple Teirs would be nice.
Boy, my Life Points idea is just going nuts here. So much for me thinking I could add something simple in that wouldn't require much changing! Makes me wonder if bringing it up was worth it.
Having the generator gen the possible life point damage is interesting, but seems to start adding more complexity to it all. Granted, I'd rather have the generator do it than have to add it all up myself if it's based on tagged words within the generated moves.
I also like the ideas in previous posts for the store and the items it could sell.
Best of all though is seeing some of the YB old-timers back here posting in the Fight Club. Here's a toast to the Golden Age of YB and to the future of it which I hope may bring back some of you to the fold! Because it's been too long and there are lots of great stories we can make together still and lots of fun times to enjoy I hope!
-Dojo's costing Yen to open
-Dojo's giving a permanent Location Style to all members
-More Tiers with fewer powers per Tier
-More powers that are chosen from a small list instead of just assigned
This last one has always been a favorite of mine and is why I also enjoy YBA lots. But just having an option here or there every couple Teirs would be nice.
Boy, my Life Points idea is just going nuts here. So much for me thinking I could add something simple in that wouldn't require much changing!
Makes me wonder if bringing it up was worth it.Having the generator gen the possible life point damage is interesting, but seems to start adding more complexity to it all. Granted, I'd rather have the generator do it than have to add it all up myself if it's based on tagged words within the generated moves.
I also like the ideas in previous posts for the store and the items it could sell.
Best of all though is seeing some of the YB old-timers back here posting in the Fight Club. Here's a toast to the Golden Age of YB and to the future of it which I hope may bring back some of you to the fold! Because it's been too long and there are lots of great stories we can make together still and lots of fun times to enjoy I hope!
Kalanyr
Explorer
Okay, this is a breakdown of why I disagree with certain changes, in general if I don't list it its something I'm thinking about. I believe I already mentioned most of these to KDLadage in email.
Mm, Dojo's already have a significant effect on Member Sigs (through the Dojo/Personal Style mechanic), and they already cost money, we hadn't got around to writing up a full rules document were it was visible though.
More tiers with fewer powers per tier makes it very very hard to distinguish paths at lower tiers. It also makes it harder to balance low/high power abilities since enough low power abilitities to balance a Fist of Fury ends up being a disturbingly long list.
The small list of powers has a fairly strong resonance with the Sash path thanks to Wicht in YB2 and I'm unsure if I want to violate it, the flexibility is probably the sash's greatest strength. On the other hand, it may be possible to implement a few choices here and there on other paths.
Mm, Dojo's already have a significant effect on Member Sigs (through the Dojo/Personal Style mechanic), and they already cost money, we hadn't got around to writing up a full rules document were it was visible though.
More tiers with fewer powers per tier makes it very very hard to distinguish paths at lower tiers. It also makes it harder to balance low/high power abilities since enough low power abilitities to balance a Fist of Fury ends up being a disturbingly long list.
The small list of powers has a fairly strong resonance with the Sash path thanks to Wicht in YB2 and I'm unsure if I want to violate it, the flexibility is probably the sash's greatest strength. On the other hand, it may be possible to implement a few choices here and there on other paths.
Sollir Furryfoot
Explorer
Hi KD Ladage, I'm personally glad to see some one who's very familiar with the original YB look at this version in the works.
I think Life Points are a great idea, personally, although I think it will end up being called Stamina Points, to get rid of the misconception that you're directly damaging/killing your opponent. By renaming it and working it as Stamina, it represents more of a fatigue factor that can be elegently used and inserted into the rules.
I'll try to address most of your points and my opinions (pardon me if this is long, I tend to rant)
Definately an interesting idea, not to say the least, however, I must disagree with it. The main reason why I don't think this works is because this idea would basically kill one of the basic elements of YB, the judge factor. Different judges have different styles of judging, and if you make a list deciding on what verbs are more powerful than others, than you're taking part of their job away from them-besides, alot of verbs don't make sense with the styles that they use-a foot punches or a fist kicks, for instance-it would be silly if they dealt as much damage as a fist punching or similar. Same with certain defenses which are more effective vs. some styles or locales. You may say that these things are judged separately, but how is a judge supposed to react if one fighter draws a move that is 1/1 on your system and the other has 3/3? Too many life points also leads to more book-keeping annoyingness and complexity.
To add on to Kalanyr's commentary, half of those "3+" abilities each tier really are small things (Signature Styles/Locs) that only come into play maybe once in five matches at the beginning levels, with only a few activatable abilities that actually require action on their part. By the time they get multiple abilities, they're no longer a new player and should get the hang of it soon. Also, Kal hasn't mentioned this publicly but there will be a couple, perhaps several more tiers than the last game. With the new rules and the creative control we're working with we'll have enough powers to continue the current progression of abilities up to higher tiers without getting entirely repetitive.
A major part of Yb3 that grants all paths an enormous amount of flexibility is the personalized artifact system. These artifacts are akin to the original Yb Artifacts (although I'd like to say more balanced), but are still strong enough to help define a character's traits and abilities. All characters at least Tier 3 can pay a certain amount of yen to get a personalized artifact, and they can make sacrifices (like path abilities) ala Yb1 to strengthen it even more.
The ranking system you've given has merit, although I'm still unsure about it so I'd have to think a bit more after I've gotten some sleep.
Path buildings, not just Dojos and Gangs are in the process of being refined, although they're going to be included into the game in an interesting way I believe.
Thanks for making such insightful comments about the rules (which will hopefully be finished soon), I hope to see you around more often
I think Life Points are a great idea, personally, although I think it will end up being called Stamina Points, to get rid of the misconception that you're directly damaging/killing your opponent. By renaming it and working it as Stamina, it represents more of a fatigue factor that can be elegently used and inserted into the rules.
I'll try to address most of your points and my opinions (pardon me if this is long, I tend to rant)
Definately an interesting idea, not to say the least, however, I must disagree with it. The main reason why I don't think this works is because this idea would basically kill one of the basic elements of YB, the judge factor. Different judges have different styles of judging, and if you make a list deciding on what verbs are more powerful than others, than you're taking part of their job away from them-besides, alot of verbs don't make sense with the styles that they use-a foot punches or a fist kicks, for instance-it would be silly if they dealt as much damage as a fist punching or similar. Same with certain defenses which are more effective vs. some styles or locales. You may say that these things are judged separately, but how is a judge supposed to react if one fighter draws a move that is 1/1 on your system and the other has 3/3? Too many life points also leads to more book-keeping annoyingness and complexity.
To add on to Kalanyr's commentary, half of those "3+" abilities each tier really are small things (Signature Styles/Locs) that only come into play maybe once in five matches at the beginning levels, with only a few activatable abilities that actually require action on their part. By the time they get multiple abilities, they're no longer a new player and should get the hang of it soon. Also, Kal hasn't mentioned this publicly but there will be a couple, perhaps several more tiers than the last game. With the new rules and the creative control we're working with we'll have enough powers to continue the current progression of abilities up to higher tiers without getting entirely repetitive.
A major part of Yb3 that grants all paths an enormous amount of flexibility is the personalized artifact system. These artifacts are akin to the original Yb Artifacts (although I'd like to say more balanced), but are still strong enough to help define a character's traits and abilities. All characters at least Tier 3 can pay a certain amount of yen to get a personalized artifact, and they can make sacrifices (like path abilities) ala Yb1 to strengthen it even more.
The ranking system you've given has merit, although I'm still unsure about it so I'd have to think a bit more after I've gotten some sleep.
Path buildings, not just Dojos and Gangs are in the process of being refined, although they're going to be included into the game in an interesting way I believe.
Thanks for making such insightful comments about the rules (which will hopefully be finished soon), I hope to see you around more often
Rathan
First Post
I personally have judged an unofficial YB3 match and from that standpoint everything flows quite smoothly as is..... I like the idea of LP's.... BUT I don't know how I'd work it at all..I need to put more thought into it......
The itemshop that sollir has presented looks excellent... and he's also shown me a nice way of working the LP system.... looks like that may work as well..I don't know however if he's run it by Kal yet.....
I know from experience that adding new things and changing old in a game keeps it fresh and lively.. BUT.... in this case it IS a boards based game by heart and cannot IMHO get too complicated..... I don;t want to have to sit by my comp with a calulator working out how many flags I have and how many LP's I have left....
To our credit though, our being Kal and Sollir and a little part myself... the way the rules are stated at the top of this thread and what hasn't yet been released looks to run VERY smoothly and from what I hear about the upper tiers.. will have suprises in store for all...
Artifacts add ALOT to this version..... it adds style and diffrence among characters of the same tier... as well as giving the player being the character some choice as to what the character gets and has to work with.....
IMHO I belive that game as it stands at the top of this thread is find and just and would have my approval is it ment much anyways..... I could take or leave LP's to be honest with you... and as I like to say... if it aint broke.... don't fix it....
The itemshop that sollir has presented looks excellent... and he's also shown me a nice way of working the LP system.... looks like that may work as well..I don't know however if he's run it by Kal yet.....
I know from experience that adding new things and changing old in a game keeps it fresh and lively.. BUT.... in this case it IS a boards based game by heart and cannot IMHO get too complicated..... I don;t want to have to sit by my comp with a calulator working out how many flags I have and how many LP's I have left....
To our credit though, our being Kal and Sollir and a little part myself... the way the rules are stated at the top of this thread and what hasn't yet been released looks to run VERY smoothly and from what I hear about the upper tiers.. will have suprises in store for all...
Artifacts add ALOT to this version..... it adds style and diffrence among characters of the same tier... as well as giving the player being the character some choice as to what the character gets and has to work with.....
IMHO I belive that game as it stands at the top of this thread is find and just and would have my approval is it ment much anyways..... I could take or leave LP's to be honest with you... and as I like to say... if it aint broke.... don't fix it....
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Mithreander
Explorer
Oops, wrong thread!
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