WotC, Design and MMORPGs

Remathilis · Aug 26, 2006

satori01 said:
Would your DM have found that exciting, or do you think he would find Bardic Music overpowered in that circumstance?

Honestly? I think he would have been estatic that the bard isn't "useless"

. No, I think that would've been an alright situation, but I can't be 100% certain. I'm beginning to think there might be other issues involved (including a growing distain for d20) but who knows...

Tessarael · Aug 26, 2006

Providing the Knight's ability to make a monster go agro gives a reasonable save, I see nothing wrong with it. It's nowhere near as bad as a Wizard casting Baleful Polymorph, which would end the encounter if it worked.

Gold Roger · Aug 26, 2006

Remathilis said:
Hey everyone.

answering and commenting on some things that have come up in the discussion.

1.) I wasn't said knight. I was said bard. I knew little of the knights mechanics during the time (my copy of PH2 was on loan to the knights player).

2.) It wasn't the length, it was the perception (the DMs) the DM was locked into a certain type of fight that 1 round into the combat (it really didn't help the knight was 2nd in the round, vrock was second to last) the vrock couldn't really do more than 1 mirror image and then try to full attack the knight (and use spores on the rogue). He felt his better tactics/targets were nullified. Because of this (and the rule-mess up) the fight didn't feel like a "challenge" merely a speed bump we overcame rather easily. I think he was upset there was really no potential for us to die in that fight and all we were doing was expending resource (which we would get back soon) were going to win unless we did something REALLY stupid.

3.) The DM has a dim view on MMORPGs and dislikes the "camping" mindset of buff, pull, kill, rest, repeat. When his game took on (to him) that same fomula; I think he freaked. In his opinion (and I spoke again on this not too long ago) "D&D doesn't need an agro system" and thus his banning of the knight and its ability to "control the battlefield" (read, strip him of options and turn the monster into a mindless full attack).

4.) The mystic had reach spell because she's supposed to be non-combat. She had low ranks in concentration (maybe none?) but could heal from a distance. He's actually went back and allowed it, but has made grumbles at it.

5.) He revoiced his concern about the orb spells when the wizard nearly took out a raksasha by his dangself. I think orb of force is on the chopping block next.

6.) The 5 rounds came from the knights full attack removing the mirror images and not having DR appropriate weapons. If the knight had the proper DR-beating weapon? 2-3 rounds.

I spoke with him again not too long ago. He's pretty adamant about banning the knight. However, knowing now it was a fluke fight (and we screwed it up royally) I feel better knowing it was NOT the class.

Still, DOES D&D need an "agro controller" in the mechanics?

No, no it doesn't need it. Nor does it need PrC's, Food creating spells, divinations, bardic music as magical effect, smite evil, domains etc.

But it's nice to have those options.

On everything else, I really feel the DM should look at himself first before anywhere else. Now anymore than before.

MerricB · Aug 26, 2006

Remathilis said:
5.) He revoiced his concern about the orb spells when the wizard nearly took out a raksasha by his dangself. I think orb of force is on the chopping block next.

It sounds a lot like your DM sends single opponents at you. In D&D, they're going to die quickly. The orb spells, despite probably being wrong school, are at the proper level. They're seriously suboptimal the moment opponents use Mirror Image or there's more than one opponent.

(Mind you, the Rakshasa is another seriously over-CRed monster like the Ogre Mage. It's scary only when it has a lot of allies.)

I've got serious reservations about your DM. It seems like he's punishing the group for being good at playing D&D.

Cheers!

Razz · Aug 27, 2006

Sounds to me the party did what it should and the combat lasted 5 rounds, a decent length of combat. And Knight's Challeng doesn't turn the vrock stupid, there's a DMs say around stuff like that.

See, a DM has the ability to change what's going on. If the fight was going bad in his perspective then he should've had another vrock come to the rescue or some other creature to surprise the PCs. He could've fudged (that's what DM screens are for) or changed the creature's statistics in mid-battle.

I have personally done that numerous times in the middle of combat. I've taken some useless feat and switched it with Combat Expertise if the creature was dying too quick, or gave it a metabreath feat to spicen things up or whatever. You're the DM, you have the power to do whatever and no one can say a thing as long as they don't know about it. That's like reality, you don't know what'll happen in the next 5 minutes until it happens.

Sounds to me the DM needs to read not one, but both DM Guides. :\ Cause the second one states not to keep countering the PCs abilities. Let them enjoy what they can do, that's why they have it! Only once in awhile counter it if you think them using it will screw things up in the current adventure.

Odhanan · Aug 27, 2006

MerricB said:
I've got serious reservations about your DM. It seems like he's punishing the group for being good at playing D&D.

Same opinion here. Sounds like the DM feels any ability that actually does something that works in the game is threatening his control over said game. Too bad for you guys. Sadly, this DM isn't a particular case.

I'm A Banana · Aug 27, 2006

It's hard to see how one opponent vs. a part of four is EVER going to be a challenging fight. It can be made into an interesting fight by moving the battleground, making some interesting choices, etc., but it's not going to make the PC's fear for their existence.

I'd actually agree with his nixing of the orb spells. Though they aren't overpowered, really, they definately rub me sideways with this no-save no-SR stuff. They require an attack roll, still, which means they're not usually the best option, but....ehk....

If he's having issues with running D&D combat, maybe it is time to pick something up other than d20, something that can introduce truly challenging villains for big parties.

....I don't know of any system like that, and I don't think he's giving d20 the fair treatment, but, still, life's too short to spend doing what you don't want to do.

WotC, Design and MMORPGs

Remathilis

Legend

Tessarael

Explorer

Gold Roger

First Post

MerricB

Eternal Optimist

Razz

Banned

Odhanan

Adventurer

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich

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