Supreme Two-Weapon Fighting vs Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting

CrimsonScribe · Sep 17, 2002

Just wondering if there is any actualy difference between these two feats (okay Supreme is technically a class ability).

I'm hoping to take 10 levels in the Tempest PrC (life expectency permitting) and was wondering whether or not I need to take Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting once I hit epic status (again life expectency permitting)?

Jeremy · Sep 17, 2002

One is epic and one is available to "mortals" with certain training?

James McMurray · Sep 18, 2002

The differende is that to get the Tempest ability, you have to advance to 10th level as a Tempest, whereas to get the feat you only have to meet its requirements. In other words: No, you wdon't have to take Perfect two-weapon fighting when you hit epic levels, but if yo somehow hit 21st level before hitting level 10 as a Tempest, you can feel free to take it then.

Bloodstone · Sep 19, 2002

Supreme two weapon fighting gives you one extra off hand attack. that's it. It is available at 19th character level

By contrast, Perfect TWF gives you an off hand attack for every primary hand attack you make. Some people interpret this as allowing you to make two attacks as a standard action, one from your primary hand and another from your off hand. It is available at 21st level, assuming you have a dex of 25...

James McMurray · Sep 20, 2002

STWF gives you 4 attacks with your off hand. PTWF gives you 4 attacks with your off hand. How are they different? Unless you can find a way to get more than 4 attacks with your primary hand. Perhaps PTWF would be more advantageous for a monk who can get 5 iterative attacks with their off-hand, bu its a heck of a lot of prereqs for a very small reward.

As for getting two attacks with a standard action, that's ludicrous. Unles the specific rule in question states otherwise, the "must make a full attack action to get more than one attack" rule always applies.

Bloodstone · Sep 20, 2002

STWF gives you 4 attacks with your off hand. PTWF gives you 4 attacks with your off hand. How are they different? Unless you can find a way to get more than 4 attacks with your primary hand.

weapon of speed. Frenzied Berzerker PrC. Ever heard of Whirlwind Attack?

As for getting two attacks with a standard action, that's ludicrous. Unles the specific rule in question states otherwise, the "must make a full attack action to get more than one attack" rule always applies.

1) the Iaijutsu Master PrC can already do this at character level 14 (Samurai 6/IM 8 for example) wielding a weapon that is held in two hands (ie Strx1.5 for both attacks), that weapon being the katana....

2) I see no reason why a 21+ level character that has dedicated 5 feats to two weapon fighting should not be able to do something like this. In reality it should have been an aspect of the Tempest PrC...

3) You are calling getting two attacks as a standard action, wich would suffer a -2 to hit on both attacks and would only do Str x.5 on the off hand becuase you are dual wielding "ludicrous"? have you seen some of the Epic feats in this game? That is pretty tame actually...

4) as I said, some people interpret it this way, some don't. To my knowledge there has been no official clarification. It is a very poorly worded feat.

MrWoolite · Sep 20, 2002

Supreme Two Weapon Fighting does not work when you are in Medium or Heavy Armor.
It also doesn't work with double-weapons.

Perfect Two Weapon Fighting does not have those restrictions.

The Iron Mark · Sep 20, 2002

I just realized, how would weapon of speed and Frenzy work with Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting? If your primary weapon had speed, would you get another attack with your secondary? How about another attack by putting speed on the secondary? That and Frenzy possibly adding two attacks*shudder*.

James McMurray · Sep 20, 2002

weapon of speed. Frenzied Berzerker PrC. Ever heard of Whirlwind Attack?

Neither of which give you more iterative attacks from BAB, and therefore do not give you more attacks from either PTWF or STWF.

1) the Iaijutsu Master PrC can already do this at character level 14 (Samurai 6/IM 8 for example) wielding a weapon that is held in two hands (ie Strx1.5 for both attacks), that weapon being the katana....

True, but in that caase, the classes' rules specifically state that it is allowed, thus overriding the general rule.

2) I see no reason why a 21+ level character that has dedicated 5 feats to two weapon fighting should not be able to do something like this. In reality it should have been an aspect of the Tempest PrC...
[/QUOTE
But as written it isn't, and there is no )logical) way to interpret it as such. It is quite easy to make up a feat that does it though. In fact, creating new feats is encouraged in the ELH.

3) You are calling getting two attacks as a standard action, wich would suffer a -2 to hit on both attacks and would only do Str x.5 on the off hand becuase you are dual wielding "ludicrous"? have you seen some of the Epic feats in this game? That is pretty tame actually...

Click to expand...

No, I'm calling the interpretation that would grant this extra plus to a feat that is fine as is ludicrous. The ability to get two attacks as a standard action is not ludicrous, but trying to squeeze it out of a feat that plainly does not allow it is.

[QUOTE}
4) as I said, some people interpret it this way, some don't. To my knowledge there has been no official clarification. It is a very poorly worded feat. [/B]

How is it poorly worded? It specifically mentions BAB and it does not expressly override the rules already in existence for getting more than one attack. It seems to be worded just fine to me.

As has been mentioned, SPWF requires ten levels of a prestige class and light or no armor. PTWF requires netiher. The benefit to PTWF is obvious without having to add other things on top of it.

James McMurray · Sep 20, 2002

The Iron Mark said:
I just realized, how would weapon of speed and Frenzy work with Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting? If your primary weapon had speed, would you get another attack with your secondary? How about another attack by putting speed on the secondary? That and Frenzy possibly adding two attacks*shudder*.

The same way that normal Two-weapon fighting and a Weapon of Speed orfrenzied Berserker work (i.e. no extra bonuses). PTWF specifically mentions attacks from BAB, and does not mention other sources, therefore those sources do not apply.

You could get another attack by putting speed on the secondary weapon though. Of course, you don't need PTWF to do that.

Supreme Two-Weapon Fighting vs Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting

CrimsonScribe

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Jeremy

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James McMurray

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Bloodstone

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James McMurray

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Bloodstone

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MrWoolite

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The Iron Mark

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James McMurray

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James McMurray

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