D&D 5E The Barbarian has been Nerfed YET AGAIN. Where is Thick Hide?

I noticed this playtest pack seems to have had 2 goals. #1 Heap the fighter with tons and tons of class benefits, ability score bonuses/feats, etc. #2 Strip as many from the barbarian as possible. I don't have an issue with #1; I like fighters being strong and competent characters. But I am really not liking issue #2.

To begin, I have a barbarian who does not wear armor. Using the Thick Hide class ability, I had an AC of 17, and thanks to an ability score increase that was due soon, it would have gone up to 19 (my Con and Dex scores are odd numbers).

Now my Ability score bonus has been put on hold. And I get to sacrifice feats I was hoping to take to get it. Oh boy!

But wait, it gets better! I lost the "Thick Hide" Ability altogether! In fact, I cannot even take a feat (by lowering ability scores retroactively, wasn't that nice of them) to get the same ability. It just no longer exists! How wonderful! Now My AC drops to 14, and the increase I was hoping for just isn't going to happen anytime soon. Someday I can get a Dex increase to make it a 15, IF I decide not to take a feat, that is. Thanks a lot, guys!

I guess the "but you COULD wear armor" argument is there, but then I have trouble envisioning my character wearing armor. It completely doesn't fit the character concept. The character is a ninja (you read that right) who goes into a "battle trance" when she "rages". This gives her uncanny awareness, and ability to block attacks (hence why she takes half damage while in battle trance). She wears no armor; just a simple black gi. The Thick Hide ability allowed this character concept to work. Now it does not.

Oh, I'll wear armor, if I'm forced to; assuming I don't change classes. I'll come up with some excuse for why my "ninja" now suddenly wears armor, or I'll try to "re-skin" the armor into ninja gear. But I'll hate it.

It's a playtest, things change, and if you want to use a previous rule as part of an ongoing game then why not do that?

The idea of letting people take part in the development of the game is to get feedback, given reasonably of course. To really demonstrate how important the class feature is to you, try playing with the lower AC and see how survivable you are. Only after this are you really in a position to decry the change.

Personally, I think Barbarians should find it challenging to get to 19 AC - that's full plate and a shield territory, and they need some drawback to being able to hit and damage their enemies so well.

You still take half damage from most attacks and have the best HP, so i think the barb is looking just fine.

I actually still think the barb beats the fighter in raw combat, but the fighter gets a lot more general abilities so i like it so far.

Honestly, when we had a barbarian in our last packet playtest sessions, as DM I felt like he was basically untouchable, especially while raging. It needed to be knocked down a peg, but I do agree that we should be able to build a nearly naked barbarian.

When the barbarian left the group, the encounters I made seemed to work more closely to how I envisioned them too. I think the last barb skewed encounter playability too much.

Let us know how it plays with a lower AC.

p.s. WotC should probably give Barbarians some kind of bonus to wear no armor at all to encourage it too. Maybe adding some kind of expertise die or another non-AC bonus.

Neechen said:

but I do agree that we should be able to build a nearly naked barbarian.

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But you still can build a naked barbarian.
Oh, you mean build one and suffer no penalties for it? How is "being naked" actually relevant when there is no difference to someone wearing armor?

I was disappointed to see Thick Hide get removed. The shirtless Conan-style barbarian should be supported, at least as an option. I think a feat is needed at least.

I also agree that they seem to be getting a little carried away heaping double scoops of 'awesome' onto the fighter.

And rage damage is cut in half. To hit bonus is slashed. Feats evaporated. The joy continues! Please, pour on the salt, guys. Tell me how over powered I was when packet after packet nerfed the class.

I suspect that if "packet after packet has nerfed the class", it was probably because the feedback of thousands of playtesters suggested that the class needed nerfing. Personally, I think the new barbarian is awesome, that Thick Hide was overpowered and that barbarians should be the easiest "fighter type" to hit, but should have the most hps to make up for it.

You have to judge the lower damage and stuff as relative to the overall lowering of damage in this packet, not in a vacuum. And feats are still there (and are still badass!); just think of ability increases as the default feat you take.

the Jester said:

I suspect that if "packet after packet has nerfed the class", it was probably because the feedback of thousands of playtesters suggested that the class needed nerfing. Personally, I think the new barbarian is awesome, that Thick Hide was overpowered and that barbarians should be the easiest "fighter type" to hit, but should have the most hps to make up for it.

You have to judge the lower damage and stuff as relative to the overall lowering of damage in this packet, not in a vacuum. And feats are still there (and are still badass!); just think of ability increases as the default feat you take.

Click to expand...

Then I guess I need to make the character a fighter then, or just scrap it and make a new character.

So i've been meaning to try out some character creation, so this debate gave me a great oppurtunity. Lets try an iconic barb vs fighter and see how they stack up.

I decided on a 10th level comparison, no magic items, though i assumed enough money to get them the weapon and armor they would want. Note that (A) represents advantage.

Primal Rage: 10th level Half Orc Berserker Barb (all stats assume rage)
Str: 20 Dex: 16 Con: 14 Int: 8 Wis: 12 Cha: 10 Ability Bumps: (Str +2 race, +2 AB. Dex: +1 AB. Con: +1 race, + 1AB)
Feat: 2 AB.

Offense:
Attack (Greataxe): +8 (A) / +8 (A). Gets another attack if he misses.
Damage (Greataxe): 1d12 + 8, Crit: +2d8+1d12 (i wasn't sure if the barb crit ability added to the base weapon or the special crit damage, i chose the base weapon).

Defense:
HP: 95
AC (mithral shirt): 16
Takes half damage from piecing/slashing/bludgeoning.

Misc:
Speed: 40
Init: +3 (A)
Immune to Fear
Immune to Charm
Cannot be surprised

VS

Iron Heart 10th level Mountain Dwarf Path of the Warrior Fighter
Str: 19 Dex: 12 Con: 16 Int: 8 Wis: 14 Cha: 10 (Str: +2 AB, +1 AB. Con: +1 race, +1 AB. Wis: +1 race)
Feats: Heavy Armor Master, 2 AB.

Offense:
Attack (Battleaxe):+8/+8
Damage: 1d8+4. Crit: +1d12 (crits on 18-20).

Defense:
HP: 94 (141 if we count second wind).
AC (mithral plate, shield, +1 race, +1 class): 22
-3 damage from bludgeoning/slashing/piercing.

Misc:
Speed: 25
Init: +1



To test these guys out, i chose a bruiser monster around the 10th level mark, and came upon a fire giant. A lot of math is going on behind the scenes. I've got it if people need it, but for presentation i will just lay out the results:

Offense: (damage per round)
Barbarian %hit per swing: 79%. DPR: 29.855
Fighter %hit per swing: 55%. DRR: 10.6

Here are the major factors. The barbarian's advantage on every swing adds a big accuracy bonus, and it does more flat out damage. Further, if the barb misses at least one attack, it gets one more swing. The fighter does crit more often, but the barb crits harder.

Defense: (damage taken per round).
Barbarian: %chance to take a hit: 70%. DTPR: 9.25
Fighter: %chance to take a hit: 40%. DTPR: 9.5

This one is very interesting. Even though the fighter is much harder to hit, the barb takes a lot less damage whenever it does get hit. Further, both of them take crits with the same regularity, which favors the barb. However, there is more going on here. The fighters deny death ability needs to be factored in, and i decided to use his action surge to get him a free second wind, which effectively increases his hitpoints. With all of that factored in, how many rounds would we expect each guy to stay up?

Barbarian: 10 rounds (this worked out really nicely since barb rage lasts 10 rounds).
Fighter: 15.3 rounds (without defy death and second wind, the fighter only lasts 9 rounds - less than the barb!. However, the big boost of extra hitpoints makes the most difference, defy death gives him 1.3 more rounds of fighting).


Overall Output: (damage x rounds alive in combat)
Barbarian: 298.55
Fighter: 162.18
Winner: Barbarian by 84%!



Analysis: Now i don't believe a strict math analysis is going to give us full insight into how classes match up, and certainly not with just one analysis. However, there are a few things we can glean:

1) At least in this scenario, the barb's damage resistance is very powerful, it is actually better than the most defensive character i could make for a fighter. As damage per swing decreases the fighter is more comparable but i think it proves it is worth several points of AC all on its own.
2) The barb's offense was hugely greater than the fighter's. The advantage bonus played a lot, and that extra swing on a miss also contributed a decent amount.
3) A did not factor in surprise. On a readiness score of 10, the fighter had a 35% chance of not even going in the first round. And the barb has better initiative.
4) The barb also is better with ranged weapons.


So my final impression. I'm not coming out of this saying the Barb is OP. The barb is probably the most combat oriented class right now, the fighter has a bit more generalist flavor to him and the barb can't handle as many fights at full capacity as a fighter can. That said, i think the analysis showed that the barb looks pretty good on paper, and i certainly wouldn't say they need any buffing unless something just comes out in playtesting i was not expecting.