D&D (2024) Things You Think Would Improve the Game That We WON'T See

[Thomas Shey]

One thing I do agree with WotC (beyond beholders and mind flayers being awesome) is that point buy is not the assume default of stat generation, no matter how many people on forums act like it is.

Probably depends on the criteria you're using to define "assume default".

 

[Micah Sweet]

Probably depends on the criteria you're using to define "assume default".

My criteria is: the game assumes you are using point buy to generate your statistics. Other methods are indicated as optional.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Standard Array.

Has Standard right in the name.

 

[Thomas Shey]

My criteria is: the game assumes you are using point buy to generate your statistics. Other methods are indicated as optional.

The question was whether the phrasing was specifically only relevant to 5e (where it pretty clearly is true).

 

[Micah Sweet]

The question was whether the phrasing was specifically only relevant to 5e (where it pretty clearly is true).

5e has rolling front and center, standard array at #2, point buy as optional.

 

[Minigiant]

And a party needs no constitution masters at all. Your argument here is Intelligence is not important because you only have a few Intelligence skills, but then you have no constitution skills at all. If you need 1 or 2 loremaster that is 20-40% of the average party and unless you have a Wizard or Artificer it is not a given you are going to have that.

Constitution checks are less common than intelligence checks and Constitution, like Intelligence, is almost never vital to survival.

I agree.

My point is that the way D&D as a game is set up, having more than 2 PCs with positive Intelligence scores above 13 is always* overkill and purely detrimental*. In D&D, you never* roll enough vital INT checks to warranted needing more than 2 PCs rolling for it. And rarely are you allowed to do so for important checks. For minor story checks and puzzles, everyone gets to roll and the 8 INT PC can attempt to just roll high.

Whereas having more than 2 PCs with positive Intelligence scores above 13 is merely suboptimal. CON has a non-skill benefit that benefits every PCs. And at hack and style tables that benefit comes up often.

*unless you are playing a mystery heavy campaign.

Then you get to Saving throws and BOY is INT saves nea useless if you aren't facing psionics. DMs tend to have to homebrew just to make INT saves matter.

Where CON is a big three for saves.

Dexterity yes, Constitution no. Unless you play a class or race that has abilities that use Constitution it is not very useful at all.

I have played a number of 1-20 point buy characters, form a variety of races and classes and never had much use for a Constitution above 12 at all.

Wisdom is more universally useful than Constitution. and unlike Constitution, Wisdom is often vital for survival both for perception and for Wisdom saving throws.

CON is a big three saving throw and add a bit of HP. It's s beneficial to all.

INT is the least or second to least appearing saving throw and has no combat benefit for any PC who doesn't have a class feature based on it. And INT checks are low threat checks based on identification which low INT idiot PC tend to get to roll. INT checks are rarely hurried where only 1 PC gets to attempt it.

*unless you are playing a mystery heavy campaign.

Loremaster is a low priority party role.

INTELLIGENCE should be an option for Light and medium armor AC like in 4E to make it matter to every PC.

 

[Lanefan]

While there are a lot of non-optimal choices people make (like playing any Fighter for instance), most of those subpar choices have legit role play reasons. This one doesn't. Investing in Constitution generally just seems to be making a build weaker for no thematic reason.

If the campaign is at all on the lethal side and-or your DM has shut down some of the healing options, Con becomes important to everyone because every extra hit point matters.

A 14 is a different story though. On point buy going to a 14 from a 10 is generally going to eliminate 5 points off of another "off stat" and going to a 16 is going to mean 9 points typically.

Now if you are playing a Fighter and can dump intelligence, sure it is workable. If you are a Rogue though you are killing yourself in your primary role.

For example: Your Rogue can go S8 D17 C10 I12 W14 CH14 and start out rocking a +3 Athletics, +5 Stealth, +6 Perception, +3 Investigation, +3 Arcana and +4 Deception that is before races and those only go up from there. This is while setting your self up for a half feat at level 4 and then by level 10 you can start boosting other stats or take feats to even do better.

This just shows me how vastly different the editions are in how the stats are viewed for what in theory would be the same character.

The one consistency is that for a Rogue (or Thief) you'd want the best stat in Dex. After that, in 1e you want good Con (for durability) and then good Str (for melee...and for carrying capacity for all the loot you're gonna scoop, right?). If you've lucked into four good stats, Int (for searching) or Cha (for persuasiveness) gets the fourth one. Wisdom is always the dump stat for Thieves.

 

[ECMO3]

Standard Array.

Has Standard right in the name.

Ironically, this "standard" is the only official option that is not actually in the basic rules.

The basic rules state that "You generate your character’s six ability scores randomly ..." and then goes on to list point buy as variant.

 

[ECMO3]

If the campaign is at all on the lethal side and-or your DM has shut down some of the healing options, Con becomes important to everyone because every extra hit point matters.

If your DM shuts down some of the healing options then you are not playing RAW 5E. Healing potions are basic equipment in the PHB. If you are playing a hombrew or different game a lot of things would be different.

In RAW 5E without gimping healing, going to 0 hps is relatively safe and often has little effect on the outcome of a combat, as you will be healed before your tun in most cases and in many cases without even using an ally's action. As I stated earlier, being at 0hps is generally less debilitating and less dangerous than being paralyzed or incapacitated and being down is probably on par with being frightened or poisoned. While those conditions are weaker they are also more difficult to remedy in combat. Someone who is frightened or poisoned is probably going to stay frightened or poisoned for a few turns. Meanwhile someone who is at 0 usually won't even be at 0 for a single turn. This is what makes Wisdom a more important stat than Constitution for most PCs.

Also hit points are capped at 0 on the low end. So if I am a 5th level character 1 hit point or 11 hit points and I take 15 damage, that extra 10 hps I got for devoting four full points to constitution is completely irrelevant. I am at 0 either way, and after my ally casts healing word I will be at 5 either way. When I get damaged next turn I will be at 0 again .....

The one consistency is that for a Rogue (or Thief) you'd want the best stat in Dex. After that, in 1e you want good Con (for durability) and then good Str (for melee...and for carrying capacity for all the loot you're gonna scoop, right?). If you've lucked into four good stats, Int (for searching) or Cha (for persuasiveness) gets the fourth one. Wisdom is always the dump stat for Thieves.

A 1E Rogue used strength exclusively for backstab. Also in 1E the Constitution bonus was capped at +2 for everyone except Fighters and Cavaliers.

Generally Rogues were near useless in combat in 1E. You needed one in the party, but we usually did a multiclass Rogue or Assasin to fill that role.

 

[ECMO3]

Where CON is a big three for saves.

Con is one of the 3 top saves. But this is a misnomer because Wisdom is the big 1.

Here is how the saves stack up:

1. Wisdom
2-3. Con or Dex in either order
4. Strength
5. Charisma
6. Intelligence

Con and Dex and I would say in terms of saves these are near equal - Con is probably more important on a caster and Dex is more important on anyone with evasion.

But the difference in Widsom and Con/Dex is large, especially in high level play. The difference between Wisdom and Con/Dex is probably bigger than the difference between Con/Dex and Strength.