AverageCitizen
Explorer
So I'm using the latest playtest, and I can't figure out a good reason for a level 1 rogue to use a rapier over twin short swords.
Any body have any thoughts?
Any body have any thoughts?
D&D 5E Rapiers and Rogues
Ruin Explorer
Legend
Due to the lack of a Feat at L1, yeah style-only.
Plaguescarred
D&D Playtester for WoTC since 2012
1 Rapier vs 2 Short Swords is not just a damage tradeoff, its also a question of action economy and free hand availability. When you are two-weapon fighting with short swords, it takes up your other free hand and leaves you unable to use any bonus actions such Cunning Action, as explained in this Legends & Lore article.
1 Rapier 1d8 + Dex damage, 1 action 1 hand.
2 Short Swords 1d6 + Dex /1d6 damage, 1 action & 1 bonus action, 2 hands.
1 Rapier 1d8 + Dex damage, 1 action 1 hand.
2 Short Swords 1d6 + Dex /1d6 damage, 1 action & 1 bonus action, 2 hands.
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Ruin Explorer
Legend
EDITED in response to edit - We'll see if that rule goes live. I'm betting not. Rogues are significantly weakened if TWF is labelled a bonus action.
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Plaguescarred
D&D Playtester for WoTC since 2012
Yeah my answer was based on their last rules update on this front. If it turns out either game elements doesn't use a bonus action then it will work fine togheter indeed!
But just going with last packet not much reasons no.
But just going with last packet not much reasons no.
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If you think Rogues will be unhappy, what if they decide to label Extra Attack as a Bonus Action.
Plaguescarred
D&D Playtester for WoTC since 2012
I think Mike Mearls had confirmed on twitter that Extra Attack wasn't a bonus action IIRC.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
Well indeed. I think they'll keep it to stuff like spells or class-specific abilities, not truly plain extra attacks whether from class or TWF (or 2H cleave or the like).
That's good to hear. As the main concern seems to be stacking multi-class stuff (which is a reasonable concern), I'd think they'd want to leave TWF out of it (I see they mention it in the article, but it's not clear if they intend to make it a bonus action, or if it's just part of the general example of all the things you could be stacking, only some of which might become bonus actions).
Also, if they do make TWF a bonus action, we get back into 3E/4E "Find a use for your Bonus Action!" territory, which they specific sought to avoid. You get people carrying around a second weapon to use up that Bonus Action when they don't otherwise take one, etc.
EDIT - In fact that would apply here - 2 SS is still better than 1 Rapier even with TWF as a bonus action much of the time, because your main combat goal as a Rogue is usually to get your SA damage - so what you do is, roll to hit with the first SS, if it hits and you SA, great, use Cunning Action or whatever. If it misses, oh well, attack with the other SS, and give up on Cunning Action for the round. Whereas Rapier dude just has to eat the miss, even if he doesn't benefit from the Cunning Action that turn.
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Majoru Oakheart
Adventurer
That article pretty much says it was in the final version. It says that during the playtest they found an issue with too many extra attacks being stacked and that was the solution they came up with that everyone liked. There was a Rule of Three a couple of days after the article where someone asked "Doesn't that cause a problem with Rogues who have to choose between using their extra movement and getting an extra attack with their off hand?" and the response was "Yes, but we like that they have to decide which one to use each round. One round they might need the mobility and the next they might want the extra damage."
Even the page from the PHB that was spoiled mentions Bonus Actions as a thing.
Previously, Mike Mearls confirmed that Extra attacks were not Bonus Actions but TWF was.
Plus, it doesn't affect their damage THAT badly. Most rounds they choose between a 75% chance to hit for 1d6+4 plus a 75% chance to hit for 1d6 or losing the extra 1d6. Which means the average damage is either 5.625 or 8.25. If you round, it's either 6 or 8 points.
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Ruin Explorer
Legend
Fair enough. As I noted above in my edit, 2 SS is still more flexible, and, on average, more damaging, than 1 Rapier with TWF as a Bonus Action. Does take us back to "Use up your minor action!" territory, but if that's what they want... Will definitely slow down combat as people have to stop and consider what is the smart thing to do with their minor... I mean bonus...
Article is from 4+ months ago and they are still editing now, so I will be interested to see if they stuck with it completely.
I agree that Bonus Actions are thing. The question is, which things, exactly?
