D&D 5E Why does 5E SUCK?

Tony Vargas · May 13, 2018

Ragmon said:
Wasn't the point, some people don't like to play complex systems but still like RPGs?

Something like that has been a talking point at some points, but it's rather dubious, once you consider that D&D has generally been the primary gateway to the hobby. If D&D was too complex for you when you tried it, you most likely concluded that you simply didn't like RPGs, and are not part of the community. If you could stand D&D, chances are you played it a while, gaining familiarity with it, before discovering other TTRPGs.
As you become more familiar with a complex system, it feels more and more intuitive, easier, and thus, less and less complex - that feel becomes your touchstone, and when you try a new system it feels more complex the more it deviates from the one you're familiar with. The main way a new system can feel simpler is if it's effectively a reduced-option sub-set of your touchstone system.

5e is a less complex system them many other major systems,.

5e is a d20 game. It may be perceived as less complex than other d20 games because there's simply less material out for it, or because its more familiar to fans of pre-d20 D&D, but they're ultimately the same, complex, system.

Besides, it's hardly fair to speak of 'other major systems,' when 5e is essentially alone in rivaling 80s-fad D&D in popularity.

Satyrn · May 13, 2018

Ragmon said:
Wasen't the point, some people don't like to play complex systems but still like RPGs. 5e is a less complex system them many other major systems, thus these people like playing 5e. 1+1=2 (why do I have to spell this out).

(Because "scared of complexity" doesn't equal "prefer simplicity.")

AbdulAlhazred · May 13, 2018

doctorbadwolf said:
Indeed, but with a group that doesn’t have a strong preference for an old edition over the new one, it’s hard to get new games started in the old edition. My group has some who prefer 4e, some who prefer 5e, and some who don’t care that much.

And I keep wanting to tinker with it every time I think too long about it.

Yeah, I don't ask permission. I mean, obviously if everyone just turns up their noses then you can't make it work, but if SOME will play, then the rest kinda get stuck coming along. And if many would rather play 4e, then its not like you're pushing just your own personal preference on the rest of the group.

AbdulAlhazred · May 13, 2018

Tony Vargas said:
Something like that has been a talking point at some points, but it's rather dubious, once you consider that D&D has generally been the primary gateway to the hobby. If D&D was too complex for you when you tried it, you most likely concluded that you simply didn't like RPGs, and are not part of the community. If you could stand D&D, chances are you played it a while, gaining familiarity with it, before discovering other TTRPGs.
As you become more familiar with a complex system, it feels more and more intuitive, easier, and thus, less and less complex - that feel becomes your touchstone, and when you try a new system it feels more complex the more it deviates from the one you're familiar with. The main way a new system can feel simpler is if it's effectively a reduced-option sub-set of your touchstone system.

5e is a d20 game. It may be perceived as less complex than other d20 games because there's simply less material out for it, or because its more familiar to fans of pre-d20 D&D, but they're ultimately the same, complex, system.

Besides, it's hardly fair to speak of 'other major systems,' when 5e is essentially alone in rivaling 80s-fad D&D in popularity.

I never got this whole '5e is simpler' thing. Its no simpler than 4e. If you want simple, there's Moldvay Basic, which is about the simplest version of D&D there is. Expert adds some more 'stuff' to that, but a lot of that is optional and only kicks in at high levels anyway. Mechanically its a very simple game, although the way it seems to pretty much arbitrarily pick a different size of die for each mechanic is a bit offputting.

Ragmon · May 13, 2018

Satyrn said:
(Because "scared of complexity" doesn't equal "prefer simplicity.")

The glass is half empty.

Mistwell · May 14, 2018

Ragmon said:
Wasen't the point, some people don't like to play complex systems but still like RPGs. 5e is a less complex system them many other major systems, thus these people like playing 5e. 1+1=2 (why do I have to spell this out).

You have to spell it out because that's not the words you used which I was objecting to. What you said was:

Ragmon said:
If it appeals to new players and people who were scared of 3.5 "complicated" system, I'm all for it.

You put "complicated" in quotes, and you described people who have issues with it as "scared". That's what I had a problem with. If that's not what you meant then what, did you expect people to read your mind? Why are you asking "why do I have to spell this out" when what you said apparently didn't reflect what you meant? All we have to go on is what you actually write here, not what you're privately thinking. So yes, you actually do have to spell out what you mean. If you didn't mean that you think 5e fans are scared of the level of complexity of 3.5, the perhaps don't use those words and then complain when someone challenges you on it?

doctorbadwolf · May 14, 2018

houser2112 said:
You use scare quotes around "this game is so static" as if it's not, but it really is. 5E does not let you spread your skill expertise as thinly as you may want. If it's not a class skill for your 1st level class, and it's not offered by your background, you will only ever get better at it by increasing ability scores (a very precious resource in 5E) or spending a feat (the SAME very precious resource as it would take to increase ability scores) to get proficiency. In 3.x, if you didn't have enough skill points to reflect all the skills you wanted your character to have at 1st level, you could make up for it later.

Spending 3.5 skill points on skills you didn’t put points in at chargen was generally a trap. And not like “trap” is used now, where something is bad from a CharOp POV, but fine in normal games. It was a waste of a (for most classes quite limited and precious)character resource.

It gave the illusion of customization, but by mid levels your chances of success were dogcrap, most of time.

The 5e skill setup isn’t perfect, but I’d rather eat soap than go back to the 3.5 system, especially with its double cost for cross class skills nonsense.

UngeheuerLich · May 14, 2018

doctorbadwolf said:
Spending 3.5 skill points on skills you didn’t put points in at chargen was generally a trap. And not like “trap” is used now, where something is bad from a CharOp POV, but fine in normal games. It was a waste of a (for most classes quite limited and precious)character resource.

It gave the illusion of customization, but by mid levels your chances of success were dogcrap, most of time.

The 5e skill setup isn’t perfect, but I’d rather eat soap than go back to the 3.5 system, especially with its double cost for cross class skills nonsense.

No. Spreading your skillpoints was not the problem.
The problem were those skills that needed to be maxed like performance for a bard or spellcraft and concentration for the wizard, and the skills that you maxed although it does not make sense for your character like perception or stealth.
If you as a DM take the listed dcs seriously (DC 10 to 25 mostly) and encourage the use of "take 20" and "take 10" then many skills are usable with only a few points put into them. Open lock for examle is much more reasonable if you just allow the thief to take 20. That way dexterity and a few skill ranks allows the thief to open most locks when there is mo time pressure (it takes 2 min). Only when there is pressure, a wizards knock spell or a thief with a fokus on opening locks is needed.
The way how 3.5 was played was that DMs sadly increased difficulty to give even the most specialized player a hard time which made it an arm's race and also made unspecialized players feel powerless without heavy fokus and magic.

Here in 5e expertise and proficiency and half proficiency do the trick that you can't raise everything to max. Sadly this system indeed ended a bit too static as you can't learn skills later.

doctorbadwolf · May 14, 2018

UngeheuerLich said:
No. Spreading your skillpoints was not the problem. The problem were those skills that needed to be maxed. Those that you maxed although it does not make sense dor yoir character.
If you hold to the stated dcs and use take 20 and take 10 a lot then many skills are good with only a few points. The way how 3.5 was played was sadly increasing difficulty to give even the most specializedbplayer a hard time which made it an arm's race.
Here in 5e expertise and proficiency and half proficiency do the trick that you can't raise everything to max. Sadly this system indeed ended a bit too static as you can't learn skills later.

That is a bit hard to read, but I think I understand what you’re saying. If I’m reading you right, none of that changes the fact that in 3.5 it’s a waste of skill points to spread your points thin, and can make your character ineffective at skills in general.

UngeheuerLich · May 14, 2018

doctorbadwolf said:
That is a bit hard to read, but I think I understand what you’re saying. If I’m reading you right, none of that changes the fact that in 3.5 it’s a waste of skill points to spread your points thin, and can make your character ineffective at skills in general.

I was under time pressure. I have edited the post for clarity... hopefully.

And to be sure:
If everybody assumed cross class limits were the baseline, and class proficiency the exception (like expertise), then it woul be 2+1 per 2 levels... not too far away from 5e. I did limit everyone to cap only a few skills at 4+ 1 per Level (which you used a lot and trained for) and everything worked perfectly from then on.

D&D 5E Why does 5E SUCK?

Tony Vargas

Legend

Satyrn

First Post

AbdulAlhazred

Legend

AbdulAlhazred

Legend

Ragmon

Explorer

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

UngeheuerLich

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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

UngeheuerLich

Legend

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