D&D 3E/3.5 A 3E/4E powergamer DMs Storm King's Thunder

A while back I commented on joining an Adventurer's League Curse of Strahd campaign. For the new season, I decided I wanted to run a table this time.

With one exception, it's gone very well so far. I managed to get a good table of players, and we've been pretty stable attendence wise. In fact, I think I managed to get the best group of players out of seven tables at our weekly events. I gave suggestions power-gaming wise during character creation wise and everyone built an effective character. We've been tearing through the adventure, we're further along than any other table that began at level one, and have almost caught up with the table that started at level 5. Also, I find it interesting that the world's biggest 4E fan is running the only 5E table out of 7 tables that isn't using a battlemap. We are also not exactly an official Adventurer League table. I'm using some house rules, kind of a prerequisite of me running a table, in order to mitigate some of the sore spots in the game and be able to run it more how I want it to be run. Everybody has been cool with it.

That being said, I said there was one exception. That exception is that running 5E is really teaching me that I hate this system, and hate it with a passion. I already told the organizer that I won't be back next season(I'm her ride to the event), either as DM or player. I'm going to try to stick it out, as the organizer can't really replace me, and I'd be letting the table down if I left. The reason I don't like 5E is because I'm a math guy, and I hate the math. The math is too random and too swingy, and the math doesn't lend itself to flexibility.

Uhm...if you're not running it AL legal then you really shouldn't advertise it as such and let the players know their characters aren't legal.

Not cool.

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thecasualoblivion said:

The reason I don't like 5E is because I'm a math guy, and I hate the math. The math is too random and too swingy, and the math doesn't lend itself to flexibility.

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Sounds like your group isn't that optimized, maybe you should have @Hemlock or @CapnZapp take a look. They seem to be able to even outs these issues significantly with the way their groups are built and play.

thecasualoblivion said:

That exception is that running 5E is really teaching me that I hate this system, and hate it with a passion.

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I'd gotten the impression from your earlier play reports that such would not have been a stunning revelation for you.

The reason I don't like 5E is because I'm a math guy, and I hate the math. The math is too random and too swingy, and the math doesn't lend itself to flexibility.

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I assume you're referring to BA? There's not that much to it. Yes, it can be swingy, though it mostly favors hitting, passing checks, and failing saves - so, generally 'making stuff happen,' which isn't terrible when combats are short and non-combat scenes can resolve on a single check or ruling. But that swinginess only crashes the system at very low level when you can get a TPK out of the blue as a result (then, in AL, everyone is just Raised the next day and off you go).

KahlessNestor said:

Uhm...if you're not running it AL legal then you really shouldn't advertise it as such and let the players know their characters aren't legal.

Not cool.

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It's an AL event, but my table is run as a home game. This was made clear to everybody, and everybody gave their ok.

Tony Vargas said:

I'd gotten the impression from your earlier play reports that such would not have been a stunning revelation for you.

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Perhaps not, but I wasn't expecting as quick or dramatic change in my mood when it comes to the game than what happened. I wanted to run it this time to get a deeper feel for the system, to see if I could bend it to my will. I have my answer.

I assume you're referring to BA? There's not that much to it. Yes, it can be swingy, though it mostly favors hitting, passing checks, and failing saves - so, generally 'making stuff happen,' which isn't terrible when combats are short and non-combat scenes can resolve on a single check or ruling. But that swinginess only crashes the system at very low level when you can get a TPK out of the blue as a result (then, in AL, everyone is just Raised the next day and off you go).

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BA is a part, but not the big issue IMO. BA more or less existed in 4E as level appropriate challenges. It's not a question of success or failure, but how you get there. Success and failure in 5E feel arbitrary, unearned.

dave2008 said:

Sounds like your group isn't that optimized, maybe you should have @Hemlock or @CapnZapp take a look. They seem to be able to even outs these issues significantly with the way their groups are built and play.

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Thank you, but possibly this could be premature.

First off, does casual oblivion even want suggestions? After all, walking away (from 5E) is a perfectly acceptable solution.

Second, so far, it seems more like an emotional response. Nothing wrong with that, but there's little to base suggestions on.

Third, more info on what seems to be the actual problem? Again, I feel it's premature to approach this from pure guesswork "is it BA?" "is the group beginners?" "is it something else?" Perhaps nothing mechanical needs to change - perhaps it's just a perception issue?

Instead I'd rather let casual oblivion process things in his or her own time.. and perhaps CO will start up a new thread when and if ready for input?

CapnZapp said:

Thank you, but possibly this could be premature.

First off, does casual oblivion even want suggestions? After all, walking away (from 5E) is a perfectly acceptable solution.

Second, so far, it seems more like an emotional response. Nothing wrong with that, but there's little to base suggestions on.

Third, more info on what seems to be the actual problem? Again, I feel it's premature to approach this from pure guesswork "is it BA?" "is the group beginners?" "is it something else?" Perhaps nothing mechanical needs to change - perhaps it's just a perception issue?

Instead I'd rather let casual oblivion process things in his or her own time.. and perhaps CO will start up a new thread when and if ready for input?

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Optimization isn't the issue. Talking with everyone at the event, we seem to have the most optimized table out of the seven. In addition, this table is more optimized than the one I was a PC for last season during Curse of Strahd.

Walking away is going to happen, but that doesn't mean there isn't anything to talk about. For what is bothering me, it's a feel thing. It's not that I dislike what 5E does, I dislike how 5E does things. I dislike how 5E gets from point A to point B. Everything feels like a coin flip. Heads you win, tails you fall on your face, though falling on your face is rarely fatal. I find that deeply unsatisfying, and almost entirely unavoidable. It's intentionally designed into the math, and it really isn't that flexible. It's hard to be specific, it's a general thing.

I'm finding it bothers me more from the DMs chair. I wanted to DM to get a feel for the math, to see if it could be modified/fixed. From where I'm standing, I'm feeling like it would be more trouble than it's worth, and the end result at the very least wouldn't be 5E anymore.

You don't like 5E. Ok. Can we close the thread now?

thecasualoblivion said:

Walking away is going to happen, but that doesn't mean there isn't anything to talk about. For what is bothering me, it's a feel thing. It's not that I dislike what 5E does, I dislike how 5E does things. I dislike how 5E gets from point A to point B. Everything feels like a coin flip. Heads you win, tails you fall on your face, though falling on your face is rarely fatal. I find that deeply unsatisfying, and almost entirely unavoidable. It's intentionally designed into the math, and it really isn't that flexible. It's hard to be specific, it's a general thing.

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Sure but what do you want to talk about

I mean, my only reply so far is "I hope you find what you're looking for; good luck "

If you want to discuss specifics, please be more specific

WHY do you feel it's a coin flip? Assuming you liked previous editions more, what about those editions do you feel is different?

That sort of thing...

Don't feel pressured into supplying any things, though. As I said previously, it's fine if you just need to vent. Except then there isn't really anything to talk about