D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

Maxperson · Jun 29, 2017

KahlessNestor said:
Even a very devout monotheist like Tolkien had his polytheistic pantheon, so I am not seeing the issue here.

Middle Earth had only one god named Eru Iluvatar. Eru means "The One". The Valar were Archangels and the Maia were the lesser angels. He created them to help create the universe.

I agree with everything else you said there, but I thought I'd point that out.

Maxperson · Jun 29, 2017

Hussar said:
While I believe invoking Tolkien in these discussions is pretty much analogous to Godwinning a thread, I'd point out that in the Hobbit and the LotR, religion plays pretty much zero part in the fiction. There are no priests, no churches, and, AFAIK, zero mention of any religion whatsoever.

When the hobbits met Faramir, he told them about his people praying to the west at certain times. You're right that those books don't have much in the way of religion, but there's not zero mention of religion.

Maxperson · Jun 29, 2017

Yaarel said:
You cant force a deeply monotheistic player to pretend to commit idolatry. It becomes unfun. It is nonnegotiable. The player needs a safe space to create a character on the players terms. I want any rules and flavor that the player consults in D&D to be gentle, and to support player choice.

Idolatry isn't a part of a polytheistic D&D in any way, shape or form. In order for you to be asked to pretend idolatry, you would have to be playing in a monotheistic game world with a god who has also commanded you not to worship false gods, and then have a PC follow a false god. THAT would be pretending to commit idolatry.

In a polytheistic D&D setting, no idolatry exists, so it's not possible to pretend to commit it. And since you aren't really following any false gods yourself, idolatry doesn't come into things at all, pretend or otherwise.

Cyrinishad · Jun 29, 2017

After reading Yaarel's post, he officially claims the title of Strawman King in my book... my goodness, claiming that 5E is "forcing" monotheistic players to commit idolatry.

What a stunningly self-righteous misinterpretation of both D&D and Monotheism... Amazing. :hmm:

Sadras · Jun 29, 2017

Yaarel said:
Do I want a monotheistic campaign setting? The short answer is, yes. The long answer is, be careful what one wishes for. If the defacto definition of ‘D&D monotheism’ would be the DM is ‘God’ and decides what the Infinite thinks, then that too would objectionable. God is infinite; the DM is less so. Basically, Divine Infinity exists beyond the fabric of space-time, simultaneously past, present, and future. In a monotheistic game setting, the Divine normally intervenes only subtly and indirectly, because, the Divine desires humans to make the world a better place by means of human effort. The risk to humans is real. The good that humans do is real. Normally God is hidden. God is most ‘visible’ when other humans are doing good things. In other words, if the DM wants to supply the team with help via some NPCs or items whose opportune timing is ‘miraculous’, that can be fine and fun. But in terms of actual game rules, monotheism is part of the background flavor without any need for mechanical rules.

This is a game with rust monsters and beholders, what in the Nine Hells are you talking about?

For the player, I want the player to always decide the spirituality of their own character. Like gender and sexuality, spirituality is an aspect of the deep identity of a reallife human. You cant mess around with the spirituality of a reallife player, unless you have permission from the player, and an opt-in from the player.

Do you think the rest of us mess around with player's real life spirituality? What about the spell Animate Dead, do you consider it a real life spell?

Similarly, you cant force straight player to play a gay character, or a gay player to play a straight character.
You can invite a player to experiment because they might find that entertaining, but if they say, no, it stops there, or the game becomes unfun for that player.

Does any PHB of any edition state differently? Has this ever been forced upon you by a DM? I have heard of playing a different sex when picking a character from a hat, but it never reaches the stage of gender preference.
Seriously, what kind of social challenges are you running at your table and does proficiency bonus still apply? Or does this this activity form part of the exploration pillar?

You cant force a deeply monotheistic player to pretend to commit idolatry. It becomes unfun. It is nonnegotiable. The player needs a safe space to create a character on the players terms. I want any rules and flavor that the player consults in D&D to be gentle, and to support player choice.

Safe space? Good grief are people really getting triggered by pictures of Tymora or Helm? How do they deal with wiki pages of the Parthenon or the Angkor Wat?

What if you have a player who is ok with multiple deities in their imaginary world but is not ok with another player's real life personal belief's imposing in on the collective imaginary world of the group. Who are you as DM going to be gentle to?

For the DM, I want a setting-neutral Players Handbook. When I DM, I require this. When I create a homebrew campaign setting, I need the game rules to support by world-building DM style. It takes a lot of work to evoke the illusion of a world. I dont want players constantly consulting rules whose flavors and setting assumptions are *wrong*, contradictory and confusing. These disruptions ruin narrative immersion. They break the fourth wall, sotospeak, force meta-gaming, and ruin the vividness of the game. I use flavor to build a world, and am sensitive to flavor text. I find unwanted flavor impossible to ignore, and in the current 5e Players Handbook, the unwanted flavor is everywhere.

What about an entirely female playgroup, should they be able to request a PHB written entirely from a female perspective, so as not to get triggered and would thus alter Melf's Acid Arrow to Felf's Acid Arrow?

Mirtek · Jun 29, 2017

For the player, I want the player to always decide the spirituality of their own character. Like gender and sexuality, spirituality is an aspect of the deep identity of a reallife human. You cant mess around with the spirituality of a reallife player,

Never in my life did I meet a person worshipping the concept of monotheism itself. Sure plenty of people worship a monothoistic deity, but if they're deeply religious it doesn't matter whether D&D replaces their deity with one different fictional deity or multiple fictional deities

As long as it's not their deity it's idolatry to them

cmad1977 · Jun 29, 2017

A lot of dumb reasons for 'hating' FR realms in this thread.
I think 'The Realms' are as dumb as the next guy but some of you are pretty silly.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sadras · Jun 29, 2017

cmad1977 said:
A lot of dumb reasons for 'hating' FR realms in this thread.

Yes, but this a collection of the best of the dumb reasons.

Aldarc · Jun 29, 2017

I have thus far avoided sticking my neck in this latest point of thread divergence, but oh well. I don't see the challenge of creating a monotheistic campaign in D&D 5e. You pick the domain that best represents the deity (e.g. the default Life cleric). The other domains could represent aspects of the deity. They could represent patron saints for this deity. They could be other divine servants, such as angels (or devils). They could represent cults, sects, and other schisms. And just because there is only one deity (as per your world), maybe that is not the only way to gain divine power. Or maybe people don't know there is only one, but are convinced that everyone else is following some other dark deity.

As a criticism of the Forgotten Realms, this is absurd almost to the point of farce? If a deeply pious person does not feel comfortable roleplaying someone who exists in a polytheistic setting, one likely would wonder how they survive consuming any fictional/imagined worlds that exist in modern media. Also, Paul says that it's okay to consume meat that was sacrificed to idols so long as you know that they are false idols and don't think there is no real efficacy involved (1 Cor 8), so I think this hypothetical pious soul should be able to safely "consume" the fictionalized polytheism of created-worlds without fear.

Chaosmancer · Jun 29, 2017

Maxperson said:
Idolatry isn't a part of a polytheistic D&D in any way, shape or form. In order for you to be asked to pretend idolatry, you would have to be playing in a monotheistic game world with a god who has also commanded you not to worship false gods, and then have a PC follow a false god. THAT would be pretending to commit idolatry.

In a polytheistic D&D setting, no idolatry exists, so it's not possible to pretend to commit it. And since you aren't really following any false gods yourself, idolatry doesn't come into things at all, pretend or otherwise.

Just to nip this before the misunderstanding blooms.

The claim is not that the character is pretending to commit idolatry, but that the player, by pretending their character "worships" someone other than the God of the Torah/Bible/Quran is pretending to commit idolatry. Therefore if this is a concern for the player, any divine in the DnD world unless it is an exact match for one of the three big books is a risk of idolatry.

At least, this is my understanding of their concern

D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Cyrinishad

Explorer

Sadras

Legend

Mirtek

Hero

cmad1977

Hero

Sadras

Legend

Aldarc

Legend

Chaosmancer

Legend

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