D&D 5E What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?

Hussar

Legend
If every interaction with the patron is managed by the player then it becomes very likely that every interaction will be a positive one. Positive interactions with patrons tend to result in boons which end up having at a minimum flavor advantages and at worst mechanical ones. (I got this awesome thing from my patron, it's a +5 holy avenger, found it under my cot when I woke up this morning)

Really bad example to make a point for the conversation.

Funny how we're supposed to trust our DM's but, our DM's have this sort of opinion of players.

Good grief, my players would most likely be far, FAR nastier to their characters than I ever would.

But, in any case, since the interaction with the Patron is Backgrounded, the interactions NEVER HAPPEN on screen. They are never the focus of the game. Gaining mechanical advantages or disadvantages just won't happen because it's in the Background and is not the focus of the game.

And, how, exactly, would, "I have this animal companion, but, when I'm in town, it's Backgrounded, so, it just isn't a problem." result in any sort of "advantage"? I suppose, you don't have to worry about the bear getting eaten by a random monster, but, seriously? This likely won't play out any differently than if you didn't Background it in the first place.

I'll give another example where I should have used this mechanic and would have had I known about it at the time. In a Vampire game, one player had a motorcycle. He then went through great pains to put lethal anti-theft protections on it. Numerous. IOW, all he wanted was a bloody motorcycle and he didn't want to keep worrying about whether or not I, as GM, was going to mess with it. It would have cost me exactly zero to Background this bike. Would have been fine. Now, how is that an "advantage"? "Don't steal or otherwise hurt this motorcycle when my character is not around" is a perfect example of a Background.
 

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5ekyu

Hero
So, the fact that your player has told you, in no uncertain terms, that they are not interested, and that this is unfun for them, doesn't matter? The most important thing is your setting? Setting fidelity?

We simply have different priorities.
So now the players wished have depopulated orc villages of women and babies even if they invade orc villages!!!
What a game.
 

5ekyu

Hero
Funny how we're supposed to trust our DM's but, our DM's have this sort of opinion of players.

Good grief, my players would most likely be far, FAR nastier to their characters than I ever would.

But, in any case, since the interaction with the Patron is Backgrounded, the interactions NEVER HAPPEN on screen. They are never the focus of the game. Gaining mechanical advantages or disadvantages just won't happen because it's in the Background and is not the focus of the game.

And, how, exactly, would, "I have this animal companion, but, when I'm in town, it's Backgrounded, so, it just isn't a problem." result in any sort of "advantage"? I suppose, you don't have to worry about the bear getting eaten by a random monster, but, seriously? This likely won't play out any differently than if you didn't Background it in the first place.

I'll give another example where I should have used this mechanic and would have had I known about it at the time. In a Vampire game, one player had a motorcycle. He then went through great pains to put lethal anti-theft protections on it. Numerous. IOW, all he wanted was a bloody motorcycle and he didn't want to keep worrying about whether or not I, as GM, was going to mess with it. It would have cost me exactly zero to Background this bike. Would have been fine. Now, how is that an "advantage"? "Don't steal or otherwise hurt this motorcycle when my character is not around" is a perfect example of a Background.
Answering the bear part because it illustrates the matter quite nicely.

You have now moved from " its background from the game" to its backgrounder when I want it to be. Your bear can still apparently be benefit in the woods (help in fights, track be scents etc) but when having that bear might be an impediment in town you get to cut away those deficits that would naturally as part of the setting get in your way. No need to worry about the obvious hubbub a bear in town might cause when that's the goal- cake with eat-it-too icing, mmmmm.

Just like apparently theft--proof motorcycles for free in VtM, you are not backgrounding the bike, just the bad stuff that comes with having a bike - it seems.

Seems to me this is the kind of "gaming the system" kind of thing some commenters were concerned about.

In our last dnd game, when we were attacked in caravan on the road the raiders killed the horses and when we abandoned those wagons we lost a lot of gear... man if only we had backgrounded our caravans against theft

Sure enough the Enterpise should have been backgrounded against takeover by aliens.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
I normally handle it by saying "the females & young run away". If the PC wants to hunt them down and massacre them, that's on him.

Indeed you could, but notice that a paladin involved in that situation still ends up making that choice - to pursue or not. Moral position staked. If the paladin pursues or seeks to corner them, then I'd say the player is definitely seeking to address the topic no matter what their stated position on backgrounding their oath.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Answering the bear part because it illustrates the matter quite nicely.

You have now moved from " its background from the game" to its backgrounder when I want it to be. Your bear can still apparently be benefit in the woods (help in fights, track be scents etc) but when having that bear might be an impediment in town you get to cut away those deficits that would naturally as part of the setting get in your way. No need to worry about the obvious hubbub a bear in town might cause when that's the goal- cake with eat-it-too icing, mmmmm.

Just like apparently theft--proof motorcycles for free in VtM, you are not backgrounding the bike, just the bad stuff that comes with having a bike - it seems.

Seems to me this is the kind of "gaming the system" kind of thing some commenters were concerned about.

To a certain degree, there's a scale of shirking costs. A really mundane animal companion like a horse, dog, hawk, or even wolf are usually pretty compatible with settlements. Bears and wild cats are less so, but not that hard to have them lay low in a civilized area without causing a stir. But there's no way in hell I'm going to let a character put something really exotic on background.
"Oh, yeah, that's just my allosaurus. Don't mind him."
Shyeah, right.
Exotic screams complications. Don't want the complications? Don't invite them.
 

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
Funny how we're supposed to trust our DM's but, our DM's have this sort of opinion of players.

Good grief, my players would most likely be far, FAR nastier to their characters than I ever would.

But, in any case, since the interaction with the Patron is Backgrounded, the interactions NEVER HAPPEN on screen. They are never the focus of the game. Gaining mechanical advantages or disadvantages just won't happen because it's in the Background and is not the focus of the game.

And, how, exactly, would, "I have this animal companion, but, when I'm in town, it's Backgrounded, so, it just isn't a problem." result in any sort of "advantage"? I suppose, you don't have to worry about the bear getting eaten by a random monster, but, seriously? This likely won't play out any differently than if you didn't Background it in the first place.

I'll give another example where I should have used this mechanic and would have had I known about it at the time. In a Vampire game, one player had a motorcycle. He then went through great pains to put lethal anti-theft protections on it. Numerous. IOW, all he wanted was a bloody motorcycle and he didn't want to keep worrying about whether or not I, as GM, was going to mess with it. It would have cost me exactly zero to Background this bike. Would have been fine. Now, how is that an "advantage"? "Don't steal or otherwise hurt this motorcycle when my character is not around" is a perfect example of a Background.

1. Don't assume that my opinion about human nature is inaccurate simply because you have a relationship with your players that is better than the lowest common denominator.

2. Likewise, my relationship with my players is better than the one I used to make my point. However, that relationship was earned over time and is not how I assume new folks at my table will be.

3. Something as important as the source of all of your characters main abilities who gave them to you in order to serve them, is not something that's intended to be in the background at all times simply because it's a background. Besides, it's a class ability earned at level 1. This logic also works for the animal companion.

Whether or not the companion or the patron is a problem in any given circumstance is up to the DM alone, but it's certainly not going to be a good thing in every circumstance.

4. Last, I've had players who as their first action at a table is to push the DM to see if they'll give out cool stuff just to keep the warm body at the table. It's one of the reasons why I do full on campaign primers and it has influenced my gaming.
 

Hussar

Legend
Indeed you could, but notice that a paladin involved in that situation still ends up making that choice - to pursue or not. Moral position staked. If the paladin pursues or seeks to corner them, then I'd say the player is definitely seeking to address the topic no matter what their stated position on backgrounding their oath.

And that's totally fair. The Dm has done his part. He's made orc babies not an issue. Now, if the player chooses to make it an issue, that's on the player. The player has obviously changed his mind here. But, since it's up to the player, what's the problem? If the Paladin player doesn't want to deal with it, he lets them go and nothing more is said. And, implied here, that choice doesn't then bite him on the ass either.

To a certain degree, there's a scale of shirking costs. A really mundane animal companion like a horse, dog, hawk, or even wolf are usually pretty compatible with settlements. Bears and wild cats are less so, but not that hard to have them lay low in a civilized area without causing a stir. But there's no way in hell I'm going to let a character put something really exotic on background.
"Oh, yeah, that's just my allosaurus. Don't mind him."
Shyeah, right.
Exotic screams complications. Don't want the complications? Don't invite them.

Why not? Presuming there's no mechanical benefit from the companion (now allosaurus is a bit on the big side, so, I'm assuming a high level campaign), what difference does it make if the companion is backgrounded? Realistically, how much of a difference is it actually going to make in the game? Without Backgrounding, the player spends time ensuring that the allosaurus isn't a problem - maybe hiding it somewhere. Which is fine. But, after the fifteenth time that he has to hide his pet, it gets a tad repetitive.

What are we actually losing here? It's not like this is a balance issue at all. Having an Allosaurus, for example, is perfectly allowed by the 3e rules for druid companions. It's already balanced in the class which assumes that you are going to have a pet of a certain beefiness by a certain level - whether that's an upgraded basic pet or a new, more exotic one. I'm kinda failing to see the problem here. At the end of the day, it's going to wind up being exactly the same - the pet gets hidden and the group moves on because we don't want to waste the table's time futzing about with it every time they go into a town.

Answering the bear part because it illustrates the matter quite nicely.

You have now moved from " its background from the game" to its backgrounder when I want it to be. Your bear can still apparently be benefit in the woods (help in fights, track be scents etc) but when having that bear might be an impediment in town you get to cut away those deficits that would naturally as part of the setting get in your way. No need to worry about the obvious hubbub a bear in town might cause when that's the goal- cake with eat-it-too icing, mmmmm.

Just like apparently theft--proof motorcycles for free in VtM, you are not backgrounding the bike, just the bad stuff that comes with having a bike - it seems.

Seems to me this is the kind of "gaming the system" kind of thing some commenters were concerned about.

In our last dnd game, when we were attacked in caravan on the road the raiders killed the horses and when we abandoned those wagons we lost a lot of gear... man if only we had backgrounded our caravans against theft

Sure enough the Enterpise should have been backgrounded against takeover by aliens.

Yup, you got me [MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION]. It's all about power gaming despite example after example showing that it's not.

The player just wanted a cool bike. He liked the image. But, he didn't want to spend table time screwing around protecting it. So, we placed it in the background and off we go. Whoopee. He's got a motorcycle. Man, in a game with immortal vampires who can rip the side out of a tank, that's totally game breaking. :uhoh:

But, let's run with the Enterprise example. Say we're running an SF game where the PC's have a spaceship. But, the players don't want to futz about with the spaceship being the center of attention. It's just something they use to go from A to B and a base of operations. Kind of like how no one steals/takes over the Millenium Falcon. Or Luke's X-Wing. Or any number of other space ships that appear in SF serials. How is the game harmed by placing the Enterprise in the background?

The players are telling you, again, quite clearly, that they don't want the action of the campaign taking place on their spaceship. They want stuff to happen "out there". Away missions, exploration, that sort of thing. The Enterprise then just becomes a starting place for adventures, not the site of adventures itself - just like Luke's X-Wing or, really, the Millenium Falcon. Or, most of the time, the Tardis. While there are a few episodes of Doctor Who which focus on the Tardis, the vast majority don't. The Tardis is the starting place and the ending place. But, most of the time, it's not the locus of adventure. Would Doctor Who fail as a series if you replaced the episodes that focus on the Tardis as the locus of adventure?

Is this really too much of a limitation on a campaign? Are people really that incapable of building a Star Trek campaign that doesn't feature the Enterprise being taken over by aliens?
 

pemerton

Legend
Some of the points being made in this thread are pretty surprising to me. They're completely at odds with my experiences of how RPGing works.

If every interaction with the patron is managed by the player then it becomes very likely that every interaction will be a positive one. Positive interactions with patrons tend to result in boons which end up having at a minimum flavor advantages and at worst mechanical ones. (I got this awesome thing from my patron, it's a +5 holy avenger, found it under my cot when I woke up this morning)

Really bad example to make a point for the conversation.
Even allowing for the badness of the example, this is just bizarre to me. The games I play that involve magic items have rules (express or implicit) for how items are awarded to PCs. The GM often has a strong mediating role in respect of that.

The rules also tell us what the typical bonuses are that are granted by a patron to a follower - namely, the class abilities!

The idea that the GM needs to police the role of the patron as a figure in the fiction so that players won't gift themselves benefits outside the rules is just bizarre in so many ways!

Just like apparently theft--proof motorcycles for free in VtM, you are not backgrounding the bike, just the bad stuff that comes with having a bike - it seems.
If I had a PC with a bike as core part of the character, I would expect to have the bike come under threat only in ways in which other core parts of PC identity come under threat. If - as per the approach [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] is suggesting - that is "never" than fine. In a more gritty game, it might be a result of a failed check.

But the idea that the GM would just decide the bike gets stolen is bizarre.

As far as bears are concerned, when the PCs in my 4e game were 1st level they tamed a bear. It wandered around with them for a session or two. I can't remember exactly what we did about it when the PCs arrived at a forester's steading, but I don't think it was that big a deal. It would be pretty crappy GMing, in my view, to undo ther players' success in taming the bear by having the NPCs kill it or refuse to let the PCs keep it with them or whatever.

And doubly so if it was a class feature that had been paid for with PC build resources.

There is a difference and a significant one in a game where expressly it is the purview of a player to create whole swaths of non-pc content to support their character and those games like 5e where it is not setup that way - especially if it comes with questioning the decency of the gm if they say no. They are different games and each is fine unless one brings the presumptions of one into a game bring played with rules that say the other.
There is a difference in the rules, yes. But what difference is it going to make to D&D to play it in the way I and [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] are descriing? How will it break the game? What happened to the purported modularity, flexibilkity, "rulings not rules" etc of 5e?
 

Hussar

Legend
Heck, thinking about Doctor Who, that's a perfect example of Backgrounding. The Tardis always appears as a big blue box. Yet, other than as a sort of running gag, it is never made an issue in the story. It's background. The "realistic" reaction would be considerable curiousity or even panic if this big blue box appeared out of nowhere and plunked down where anyone can see it. Yet, no matter where the Doctor goes, the Tardis never causes a stir.

Why? Because the appearance of the Tardis has been put in a Background by the player. The player doesn't want to deal with it and isn't interested. So, it gets Backgrounded and poof, problem solved..
 

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
Some of the points being made in this thread are pretty surprising to me. They're completely at odds with my experiences of how RPGing works.

Even allowing for the badness of the example, this is just bizarre to me. The games I play that involve magic items have rules (express or implicit) for how items are awarded to PCs. The GM often has a strong mediating role in respect of that.

The rules also tell us what the typical bonuses are that are granted by a patron to a follower - namely, the class abilities!

The idea that the GM needs to police the role of the patron as a figure in the fiction so that players won't gift themselves benefits outside the rules is just bizarre in so many ways!

If I had a PC with a bike as core part of the character, I would expect to have the bike come under threat only in ways in which other core parts of PC identity come under threat. If - as per the approach [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] is suggesting - that is "never" than fine. In a more gritty game, it might be a result of a failed check.

But the idea that the GM would just decide the bike gets stolen is bizarre.

As far as bears are concerned, when the PCs in my 4e game were 1st level they tamed a bear. It wandered around with them for a session or two. I can't remember exactly what we did about it when the PCs arrived at a forester's steading, but I don't think it was that big a deal. It would be pretty crappy GMing, in my view, to undo ther players' success in taming the bear by having the NPCs kill it or refuse to let the PCs keep it with them or whatever.

And doubly so if it was a class feature that had been paid for with PC build resources.

There is a difference in the rules, yes. But what difference is it going to make to D&D to play it in the way I and [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] are descriing? How will it break the game? What happened to the purported modularity, flexibilkity, "rulings not rules" etc of 5e?


Well I suppose it comes down to wherever you are on the paradigm of story as an extension of rules and rules as the boundaries of story.

I'd say that in my experience what has happened is that a patron clearly provides class abilities to a warlock and a god clearly provides class abilities to a cleric etc. So long as the patron never directly acts on behalf of the character or never attempts to interact with the character, all is well. Rules is rules.

At the point where a patron actively provides or asks a character to take on a task there ends up being some give and take inside the narrative or story where the character becomes "favored" moreso than other folks with the same patron. It's an argument that makes sense on two levels.

1. Character is interacting with a supernatural being on some level. Once that happens there's a reason for it.
2. Character is a PC so of course he's got something going for him more than everyone else.

So when certain things line up through the course of game play, you need the DM to be the one managing the patron relationship. Now it's entirely possible that any given DMs stories never get this convoluted, but it's happened to me in games where shared fiction and high player agency have been in play.
 

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