D&D 5E What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Are you suffering from a case of the Mandela Effect? It does match the 3e cleric as written, both fluff and mechanics. I don't think you are accurately remembering the 3e cleric as it was written. It gave a wide berth to a variety of clerics, deities, and playstyles. And Eberron did certainly not change the cleric class. :confused:

If it matches the 3e fluff as written, then I can play any or all of the 3e PHB clerics in Eberron and have my god up close and personal. From the 3e cleric, "Like people, gods run the gamut from benevolent, to malicious, reserved to intrusive, simple to inscrutable." If I ever play in a 3e Eberron game, I'm going to demand that I get a "Benevolent and intrusive god," since as you say, Eberron has up close and personal gods like that.

Wouldn't that still make them options and not default assumptions?

Yes, in the same way as the entire combat section is optional. The default assumption that the book shows, is that gods are intended to be encountered in at least avatar form. Which gods are available to be encountered are optional and there is no default assumption that any specific pantheon will be in use.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The avatar is just a physical manifestation of a deity in 2e-speak, and not the deity itself. You can kill avatars all day long if you like, but you won't kill any deities in the process.

It's a bite more than that. It's also a part of the deity, so while it's not the core of the god, it still is the god. It would be similar to if I could make a 2 foot clone of myself and send it somewhere. It's me, but not me at the same time.
 


Aldarc

Legend
If it matches the 3e fluff as written, then I can play any or all of the 3e PHB clerics in Eberron and have my god up close and personal. From the 3e cleric, "Like people, gods run the gamut from benevolent, to malicious, reserved to intrusive, simple to inscrutable." If I ever play in a 3e Eberron game, I'm going to demand that I get a "Benevolent and intrusive god," since as you say, Eberron has up close and personal gods like that.
Congratulations, you just quoted text that supports how Eberron's clerics and deities fall within the "gamut" of flavor text that the 3e cleric supports. That does not mean that a campaign must have these other varieties and that not encountering them changes the cleric. It means that depending on your campaign (and deities therein), the nature of deities will vary. I'm glad that I can help you parse the text. Good day. :D

Yes, in the same way as the entire combat section is optional. The default assumption that the book shows, is that gods are intended to be encountered in at least avatar form. Which gods are available to be encountered are optional and there is no default assumption that any specific pantheon will be in use.
So every monster is intended to be encountered? And if the DMG monster is not encountered then the campaign is changing the game? :confused:

What's semantical about rules that aren't based on mechanics?
It may have something to do with how you believe that this is a rule.
 

Satyrn

First Post
Also, in 2e and 3e, you didn't need to have a god to be a cleric. Heck, there's a poster here who has made it a bit of a life's mission to point out this fact repeatedly when discussing gods in 5e.
I really do enjoy quoting a certain paragraph from page 10 of the DMG:

As far as the game's rules are concerned, it doesn't matter if your world has hundreds of deities or a church devoted to a single god. In rules terms, clerics choose domains, not deities, so your world can associate domains with deities in any way you choose.
And it goes on to say that association can even be a null pointer without causing a compilation or runtime error.
 
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Bigsta

Explorer
I've never quit a game, but when I played in a ToA game that was AL legal so the DM could get AL DM rewards, Xanathar's had not yet been released.


As I mostly DM, I was excited to finally get to play a heavy armor and shield using tempest cleric. At the beginning of the campaign the DM asked if we would be sleeping in our armor and I said yes. Under AL rules there is no mechanical disadvantage to doing so, and the DM had no choice but to accept it as he couldn't house rule under AL.


About a month prior to Xanathar's release, the DM expressed interest in using the sleeping in armor rule that would be appearing in Xanathar's. I disagreed and said it would be a stupid rule that would only serve to strengthen dex classes over strength classes. We then dropped the subject.


Upon Xanathar's release, the DM implemented the sleeping in armor rule. The only other heavy armor player at the table agreed to use it and not sleep in armor at night. I did not. If we were attacked at night, I did not give the DM a lower AC. After finishing a long rest, I gave my self the same hit die that all the light and non-armor wears were entitled to. The DM eventually accepted it and moved on.


Had the DM persisted and demanded that I follow the sleeping in armor rule, I probably would have had to fire him as DM.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
If the GM is just going to stipulate all this stuff, what is the player there for? To provide some emotional language and the odd tear?

When I play a RPG I expect to be actually making decisions that matter. I'm not just there to emote my way though events the GM decides are taking place.

Because it makes them pointless, or reveals them to have a completely different significance from what they appeared to - and in a context where the players had no control over that because the players had not choice but to take on the fetch quest (as that was the game the GM was offering).
In the specific instance of the game you left, and without knowing any more than you've told us, I'd posit from what you say here that the GM's first mistake came long before revealing or even planning for the sponsor's deception: he didn't give you options as to what your first adventure might be, when GMing a table full of players who wanted to be able to make meaningful choices.

Which, to be fair, is a frequent occurrence: finding a rationale for the party to form and get into its first adventure isn't always easy. Once things are rolling it's far easier to throw in some options to go with whatever naturally develops through the run of play and-or comes from the players.

But expanding from that to the more general idea of sponsors or mentors or patrons or any other NPC not being what they seem, I still maintain this to be a valid tool in the GM's toolbox. I also maintain that low-level adventurers in a typical RPG setting would often be looked on as patsies by less ethical but more powerful individuals or groups:

Sponsor: "You're a bright eager bunch of just-out-of-training adventurers ready to prove yourselves to each other and to the world? Sure, yeah, we got a job for you..." <details mission and sends party on their way>
Assistant: "Boss, didn't you just send them on a suicide run?"
Sponsor: "Yep, and we can't lose. Either they succeed and get us the McGuffin or they don't, and if they don't that's a few more down-the-road threats taken care of..."

This goes back to the contrast I have drawn upthread between a story (in the sense that films, novels etc have stories) and tactical or puzzle-solving choices.
Ah, but using film-novel stories to compare to RPG stories has some problems.

First off, a film script or novel has one controlling hand* deciding how things will turn out and what events will occur on the way to getting there. This same controlling hand can and does decide ahead of time which protagonators will survive, which if any will die, and what becomes of the villains or foes in the end. An RPG doesn't really have any of this unless its GM is heavier-handed than even I would likely put up with.

A better, though still imperfect, comparable might be to a long-running TV series where the writers don't know if this season will be the last or whether the show will get extended durng the off-season.

* - which can be one or more actual people, but the end result is the same.

With an RPG there's no way of determining who will survive and-or be involved to the end - dice are troublesome that way, and characters get cycled in and out, and players come and go - nor of determining where things will go in the story after maybe the opening chapter, i.e. first adventure. (exception is if one is running a hard-line AP, but even there the character/protagonist survival piece is still an unknown)

An RPG is by its very nature far more open-ended than any book or film, and - again unless the GM is very heavy-handed - the story that comes out of it can often only be seen in hindsight. A novel writer knows that this coming fight against the BBEG is the final showdown and that the heroes will win out; she just has to write the words to suit what she has in mind. At a game table neither the GM nor the players know how the coming fight will turn out until after it's been played through - maybe the BBEG dies, maybe he or the party runs away, maybe he even wins and captures or TPKs the party; and in any case this may or may not be the final showdown at all.

Add to this that in an RPG there's several potential "authors" sitting around the table, each of whom might have completely different ideas on where the story should go next and-or what aspects of the current story are holding their interest and what aren't. This just adds to the overall unpredictability.

Lan-"remember, kid - don't trust anyone"-efan
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
It's a bite more than that. It's also a part of the deity, so while it's not the core of the god, it still is the god. It would be similar to if I could make a 2 foot clone of myself and send it somewhere. It's me, but not me at the same time.
But if I kill the clone I haven't harmed you at all, and you can always churn out another one...
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I've never quit a game, but when I played in a ToA game that was AL legal so the DM could get AL DM rewards, Xanathar's had not yet been released.


As I mostly DM, I was excited to finally get to play a heavy armor and shield using tempest cleric. At the beginning of the campaign the DM asked if we would be sleeping in our armor and I said yes. Under AL rules there is no mechanical disadvantage to doing so, and the DM had no choice but to accept it as he couldn't house rule under AL.

About a month prior to Xanathar's release, the DM expressed interest in using the sleeping in armor rule that would be appearing in Xanathar's. I disagreed and said it would be a stupid rule that would only serve to strengthen dex classes over strength classes. We then dropped the subject.

Upon Xanathar's release, the DM implemented the sleeping in armor rule. The only other heavy armor player at the table agreed to use it and not sleep in armor at night. I did not. If we were attacked at night, I did not give the DM a lower AC. After finishing a long rest, I gave my self the same hit die that all the light and non-armor wears were entitled to. The DM eventually accepted it and moved on.

Had the DM persisted and demanded that I follow the sleeping in armor rule, I probably would have had to fire him as DM.
So you'd fire a DM over not allowing a mechanical advantage that realism says you should never have had in the first place?

Sigh...
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Congratulations, you just quoted text that supports how Eberron's clerics and deities fall within the "gamut" of flavor text that the 3e cleric supports. That does not mean that a campaign must have these other varieties and that not encountering them changes the cleric. It means that depending on your campaign (and deities therein), the nature of deities will vary. I'm glad that I can help you parse the text. Good day. :D

It boils down to this yes or no question. If I were to play a cleric in your game, could I be a cleric of a god that is benevolent and intrusive as allowed by the PHB? I think you'll avoid that question, but I'm asking it anyway.

So every monster is intended to be encountered? And if the DMG monster is not encountered then the campaign is changing the game? :confused:

Yes. Every monster is intended to be encountered. Otherwise it wouldn't be in the books to be encountered. The DM chooses which monsters from those intended to be encountered that he wants to use, just as the player chooses the fluff(when options are available) he uses from the classes. So if Eberron allows all of the PHB cleric class as you claim, then I can have a god that is benevolent and intrusive as a cleric in Eberron.

It may have something to do with how you believe that this is a rule.
That has nothing to do with semantics, either. Here's an example of semantics. You claim to have arrived at your destination. I say, "No, you got to where you were going." Those are the same thing, so I would be arguing semantics. Treating fluff as a non-mechanical rule isn't something that is semantics.
 

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