The Battle Continues Over "Childish Things"

The recent kerfuffle between Bill Maher and comic fans mourning Stan Lee's passing has illustrated an ugly truth that geeks everywhere continue to face: geekdom is still viewed by some as a sign that society has failed to "grow up."

The recent kerfuffle between Bill Maher and comic fans mourning Stan Lee's passing has illustrated an ugly truth that geeks everywhere continue to face: geekdom is still viewed by some as a sign that society has failed to "grow up."

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Picture courtesy of Pixabay.​
[h=3]It Started with Stan[/h]The death of comics legend Stan Lee prompted an outpouring of grief and comedian Bill Maher took his passing as an opportunity to take a shot at fandom with an essay titled "Adulting":

"...the assumption everyone had back then, both the adults and the kids, was that comics were for kids, and when you grew up you moved on to big-boy books without the pictures. But then twenty years or so ago, something happened – adults decided they didn’t have to give up kid stuff. And so they pretended comic books were actually sophisticated literature."

The response was swift. Maher admitted the lost 40,000 Twitter followers after his post and that he's still followed by paparazzi asking him about "the Stan Lee thing." In response, Maher doubled down in a scathing attack on geekdom everywhere with a video titled, "New Rule: Grow Up":

"...the point of my blog is that I'm not glad Stan Lee is dead I'm sad you're alive...my shot wasn't at Stan Lee it was at, you know, grown men who still dress like kids...I'm sorry but if you are an adult playing with superhero dolls--I'm sorry, I mean collectible action figures!--why not go all the way and drive to work on a big wheel? Grown-ups these days, they cling so desperately to their childhood that when they do attempt to act their age they have a special word for it now, 'adulting'."

If those statements make your blood boil, you're not alone. The comic book industry's condemnation of Maher's comments were swift and wide-reaching. Stan Lee's estate responded directly to Maher:

Mr. Maher: Comic books, like all literature, are storytelling devices. When written well by great creators such as Stan Lee, they make us feel, make us think and teach us lessons that hopefully make us better human beings. One lesson Stan taught so many of us was tolerance and respect, and thanks to that message, we are grateful that we can say you have a right to your opinion that comics are childish and unsophisticated. Many said the same about Dickens, Steinbeck, Melville and even Shakespeare. But to say that Stan merely inspired people to “watch a movie” is in our opinion frankly disgusting. Countless people can attest to how Stan inspired them to read, taught them that the world is not made up of absolutes, that heroes can have flaws and even villains can show humanity within their souls.

The same criticism has been leveled at all things geeky, including role-playing games.
[h=3]Are Role-Playing Games Childish?[/h]Maher's attack on comics is essentially an attack on geekdom itself; the defense from Stan Lee's estate is an argument for the kind of imaginative storytelling that is at the heart of role-playing games.

In a lengthy response to a Quora question if D&D is "too immature and childish," Jake Harris explained:

D&D is a great game that brings people of all kinds together, for those willing to actually try and enjoy it. It's far from childish. Same with other forms of science fiction and fantasy. I strongly believe that these are lowkey pillars of society, which endure when pop culture constantly waxes and wanes with new trends and interpretations of “pop”. Dungeons & Dragons might have 6 Editions (I'm counting 3rd and 3.5 Editions) and Pathfinder, but its playerbase and rules remain largely the same: sit around a table, and travel to far-off lands, doing what no one else in the world is able to. Maybe you think that's childish. Maybe you could even argue that it is. Fine. I submit that maybe our world needs a little childishness. Maybe if we learn to fight less and play more we might actually get somewhere. If we choose to let the children inside of us inspire ourselves and those around us, we might not be stuck with all the problems we have.

Comedian and actor Patton Oswalt doesn't see a difference between pop culture and geek culture:

...I've got news for you—pop culture is nerd culture. The fans of Real Housewives of Hoboken watch, discuss, and absorb their show the same way a geek watched Dark Shadows or obsessed over his eighth-level half-elf ranger character in Dungeons & Dragons. It's the method of consumption, not what's on the plate.

That times have changed is perhaps best exemplified by the Collins online dictionary, which signified a shift away from Maher's perspective:

Once a slur reserved for eggheads and an insult aimed at lovers of computer programming, geek has been deemed the word of the year by the Collins online dictionary. Less brazen than selfie – which topped the Oxford Dictionaries poll last month – geek was chosen as a reminder of how an insult can be transformed into a badge of honour, according to Collins. In September the dictionary changed the main definition of geek from someone preoccupied with computing to "a person who is very knowledgeable and enthusiastic about a specific subject'', adding geekery, geek chic and geekdom to the fold.

Part of geekdom is maintaining the passion for things we enjoyed as children into adulthood, but it does not necessarily mean that we aren't effectively "adulting." Although geekdom seems to have taken over popular culture, comedians like Maher are there to remind us that not everyone is okay with the takeover.

Mike "Talien" Tresca is a freelance game columnist, author, communicator, and a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to http://amazon.com. You can follow him at Patreon.
 

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Michael Tresca

Michael Tresca

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
I have not read any of Alan Moores work, which is probably enough, but how smart is Doctor Manhattan really if he can not figure out pants. Even the Hulk can figure out pants.

Fair points, both.

So your position is all comedians like, Sacha Baron Cohen for example, are just Trolls? Because the American War of Terror was dynamite Troll material.

Oh man, how could I forget Cohen! Cohen is the trolliest of trolls. Sure, he tries harder than most to wrangle some sort of worthwhile meaning out of his trolling, but that's a low bar and one he rarely clears.

What else I'm forgetting is the other key purpose of trolls, which is catharsis. Which has its time and place, sure, but for a long time I've been growing less and less convinced is actually all that useful. Maybe that's cynicism, but I prefer to think of it as the deteriorating state of modern "comedy" as whole.
 

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Of course, because one is written for children and the other is a Shakespeare play ;)
Would you make the same statement about cartoons?
Fantasy fiction?
Board games?

Comics CAN be written for children. That doesn’t mean ALL COMICS are written for children.
I can name a dozen excellent comics that are not remotely written for children.

There may not be a comic author that can be compared to Steinbeck, Melville, Shakespeare, or Dickens. But there’s also not a novelist right now that can be compared to those once-in-a-generation authors.

That comics haven’t yet matched Shakespeare doesn’t mean they’re all for kids. I can’t name a TV show that is as respected as Shakespeare (or the other authors) but that doesn’t mean they’re for children.
 

Celebrim

Legend
What else I'm forgetting is the other key purpose of trolls, which is catharsis. Which has its time and place, sure, but for a long time I've been growing less and less convinced is actually all that useful. Maybe that's cynicism, but I prefer to think of it as the deteriorating state of modern "comedy" as whole.

George Carlin killed American comedy.
 

Faraer

Explorer
I agree with Jester David's wall of text.

Of course the bit about adults pretending comics aren't for kids isn't what happened. There was an arbitrary belief among people who didn't read comics that they were for children, and that the quality of a work was somehow determined by its medium; and that softened as the generations turned, though much of its language is still current, such as the idea that fantasy and science fiction are 'genre fiction' in some way that 'literary fiction' (largely, the self-consciously highbrow middle-class realist novel) is not.

And there is indeed a huge strain of infantilism in Western society due to the lack of adulthood initiation rites, certainly within comics and related culture, but also in mothers and fathers calling themselves mums/moms and dads, in adults caring about seeming childish, and just about every other area. Imaginative storytelling per se, and play, on the other hand, are just invariant parts of being human.
 
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Henry

Autoexreginated
Anyone who holds up Shakespeare or Dickens as their examples of superior adult literature really misses their original context as the most mass-market and low-brow of entertainment, same as Comic books and other pop culture staples are being looked at by Maher in this context. The Iliad and Odyssey were just stories about superheroes, weren't they? It's only through analysis that we realize their real value as "adult" literature.

Honestly, Maher sounds like Mr. Gradgrind from Dickens' Hard Times in this piece...
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Well it is certainly not to comment on your sentance structure.

Well, if it was to be antagonizing enough to be commented on... you succeeded!

Now, since you've won the grand prize of the Moderator Hairy Eyeball, there's no more need to be snarky at your fellow posters. You can return to a respectful, polite mode of discussion, comfortable in a job done, if not not done well.

Oh, and you misspelled "sentence".
 

Hussar

Legend
Yes of course. How many Dick jokes are in your average Board Game? Maybe Cards against Humanity, are we supposed to compare that to Shakespeare now?

Huh. When writers like Margaret Atwood can do "genre" fiction and do it seriously, I think the days when "genre fiction" was the lesser form are long, long gone.

When we have multiple genre TV shows on, pretty much every night, on pretty much every major network and in prime time no less, I think the days when SF and Fantasy are for kids are long, long gone.

But, then again, critics still think that video games are what kids play. Never minding things like my grandmother playing Farmville. Or that 65 year old retiree playing Fantasy Football. :uhoh:

Sorry, but the days when you could try to claim any sort of superiority because you don't read comic books or don't engage in role playing games or other genre hobbies died with the 90's. Sorry folks, the Gen X'ers, who grew up on D&D and Xena Warrior Princess are now the ones in charge of stuff. And we LIKE genre fiction. Get used to it Baby Boomers cause the days of Gunsmoke and doctor dramas are gone away.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Anyone who thinks serialized art forms like comic strips, comic books and graphic novels are “just for kids” has seriously not done anything beyond scratch the surface. 1980s Maus was about surviving the Holocaust...and won a Pulitzer. Wonder Woman’s origins & powers originate in- and her earliest stories are suffused with- bondage imagery. Certain superheroes, like Superman & Black Panther, were written at least in part as a conscious response & in opposition to Nazi Aryan ideology and homegrown American-style racism. Cerberus was full of social commentary (and base humor).
 


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