Paul Farquhar
Legend
I'm not convinced two weapon fighting should be much practical use. It seems to be more used for flash gits to show off than be an effective form of warfare (see Raiders of the Lost Ark).
D&D 5E Consensus about two-weapon fighting?
FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
Since all you are concerned with is damage I'm going to apply apples and apples. The Great Weapon user in this example is taking the Great Weapon style over defensive style even though the defensive style is better for him IMO.
***DPR not calcualted because chance to hit on both PC's is same. Just using damage.
Greatsword Fighter with style (level 5 with action surge 18 str)
Cumulative Damage per turn
Turn 1: 49.33 Damage
Turn 2: 74
Turn 3: 98.67
Turn 4: 123.33
Turn 2: 74
Turn 3: 98.67
Turn 4: 123.33
Shortsword Fighter with style (level 5 with action surge 18 str)
Cumulative Damage per turn
Turn 1: 37.5 Damage
Turn 2: 60
Turn 3: 82.5
Turn 4: 105
As you can see above. Starting in Tier 2 Action Surge alone boosts the GWF damage on fights with action surge ahead of the TWF (especially on rounds 1 and 2 which are the most important rounds of combat)
Now - let's take a look at the difference in precision attack.
Precision attack + other maneuvers (based on 2 short rests) on the Greatsword user add around 106 daily damage. On the TWF these add 74 daily damage.
Turn 2: 60
Turn 3: 82.5
Turn 4: 105
As you can see above. Starting in Tier 2 Action Surge alone boosts the GWF damage on fights with action surge ahead of the TWF (especially on rounds 1 and 2 which are the most important rounds of combat)
Now - let's take a look at the difference in precision attack.
Precision attack + other maneuvers (based on 2 short rests) on the Greatsword user add around 106 daily damage. On the TWF these add 74 daily damage.
Action Surge in the day (based on 2 short rests) adds 74 daily damage for the Great Sword user vs 45 for the TWF.
Any round the TWF uses 2nd wind is a loss of 7.5 Damage for a total of 22.5 potential damage lost in the day.
These values are important because the TWF starts a standard 20 round day off already doing 43.2 less daily damage than the GWF. In short when all abilities are actually factored in and the whole scenario developed the GWF has better damage numbers and has a better damage distribution than a TWF starting in tier 2.
This same analysis can be for tier 1. Expect most of your perceived TWF advantages to dry up once this is done.
Any round the TWF uses 2nd wind is a loss of 7.5 Damage for a total of 22.5 potential damage lost in the day.
These values are important because the TWF starts a standard 20 round day off already doing 43.2 less daily damage than the GWF. In short when all abilities are actually factored in and the whole scenario developed the GWF has better damage numbers and has a better damage distribution than a TWF starting in tier 2.
This same analysis can be for tier 1. Expect most of your perceived TWF advantages to dry up once this is done.
***Fixed ss calculations. They do 7.5 damage not 8.5 damage in early tier 2.
Last edited:
FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
I'll post numbers later but - in tier 1 just looking at raw damage numbers. Assuming you are using maneuvers to maximize damage - then the GWF out paces the TWF in a 20 round adventure day if the TWF ever needs to use a single bonus action for Second Wind.
His damage is more front loaded - but there is likewise value in being able to make 2 attacks vs 1 attack most rounds. I'd call tier 1 dead even.
As shown in my previous post, Tier 2 favors GWF both in damage numbers and the more front loaded distribution with the #attacks advantage shrinking for TWF to 2 vs 3.
Conclusion: From Tier 2 on the GWF is better than the TWF - though I'd at least call it close for tier 2. Tier 3 the TWF is very far behind.
His damage is more front loaded - but there is likewise value in being able to make 2 attacks vs 1 attack most rounds. I'd call tier 1 dead even.
As shown in my previous post, Tier 2 favors GWF both in damage numbers and the more front loaded distribution with the #attacks advantage shrinking for TWF to 2 vs 3.
Conclusion: From Tier 2 on the GWF is better than the TWF - though I'd at least call it close for tier 2. Tier 3 the TWF is very far behind.
Quartz
Hero
From your figures: the GWF hits twice for 2d6+4 with 1s and 2s re-rolled, then Action Surges for another two 2d6+4 attacks (~49.3). The TWF hits twice for 1d8+4 then Action Surges for another two 1d8+4 (or 4d8 + 16, average 35) then applies TWF for a further 1d6+4 (42.5). That's a difference of 7. In subsequent rounds the GWF is doing 2x (2d6+4) (~24.5) and the TWF is doing 2x (1d8x4) and 1d6+4 (~25.5). The TWF only needs 7 rounds to catch up. Therefore if you go more than 7 rounds between short rests TWF is the superior style for dealing damage.
FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
1. It's 1d6+3 and 2d6+3 (reroll ones and 2's). You don't get the 1st +2 Str till your nearly in tier 2.
2. You aren't calculating precision strike into your equation.
3. Your not factoring Second Wind into it either.
EDIT: STRIKE THIS: You are talking about the tier 2 example
Last edited:
Oofta
Legend
As far as average damage ... I think there's a whole lot of complexity being ignored for a difference of what, 6% increase in average damage in the sample from [MENTION=6795602]FrogReaver[/MENTION]?
I get it. Some people like to eke out every drop. Just put me in the list of people that think it doesn't matter and is highly situational. Besides, there's other fun things you can do like dual throw hand axes like my now retired fighter did. It was handy and made him decent at close range.
I get it. Some people like to eke out every drop. Just put me in the list of people that think it doesn't matter and is highly situational. Besides, there's other fun things you can do like dual throw hand axes like my now retired fighter did. It was handy and made him decent at close range.
FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
Trying this again.
In your example you use a rapier and a short sword. A rapier is not a light weapon - it's finesse only. As such it precludes you from TWF with it unless you pick up the Dual Wielder feat. You are essentially granting the TWF an additional 2 damage per round that he doesn't actually have.
Oh and you also miscalulated the rapier + ss damage anyways, it should be 24.5 - the 2 short swords would do 22.5.
Last edited:
FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
Yep. At level 5 the overall difference is just a small percentage in the favor of the GWF. The bigger advantage that we don't have a number to really tell us is how much better it is to do damage early on in a fight than later in it. The GWF beats the TWF hands down in that critera. It's just the exact impact cannot be numerically calculated - but it is a very significant factor - and one that raw DPR numbers will always miss.
Oofta
Legend
There were also a lot of times where my fighter could attack from range while closing or target the enemy spell caster more easily. Things that are practically impossible to quantify on a spreadsheet. Ultimately, I had fun with the PC so it worked. YMMV.
Similar Threads
