D&D 5E Consensus about two-weapon fighting?

Fenris-77 · Jun 29, 2019

Paul Farquhar said:
As it should. An offhand dagger is just about viable if you don't want to lug a shield around with you, but fighting with two big heavy weapons is so stupid even Conan doesn't do it.

Miyamoto Musashi would disagree.

Yaarel · Jun 30, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Mechanically this works well. I'm not quite sure how to wrap my head around why some characters mechanically TWF differently than others. Great mechanical solution - but totally not fiction driven - which makes it feel a bit less elegant.

What would the numbers look like if the bonus action allowed each weapon to apply the ability bonus?

Flavorwise, the bonus represents two separate thrusts, as opposed to the weapons maneuvering in concert.

FrogReaver · Jun 30, 2019

Yaarel said:
What would the numbers look like if the bonus action allowed each weapon to apply the ability bonus?

Probably too strong. As it stands any class that has a bonus action will do 2d6+mod damage on any turn they want to use their bonus action and then do 1d6+mod+(possible damage buff) per attack on the turns they don't need to bonus action. Effectively you are making the style hands down better than Great Weapons for all classes. Especially for rogues and barbarians and paladins.

On second thought, Rangers already have this issue. Which means the proposed mechanic isn't quite as mechanically balanced as I first thought...

Flavorwise, the bonus represents two separate thrusts, as opposed to the weapons maneuvering in concert.

Doesn't make sense to me.

Zardnaar · Jun 30, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Case 1: You were engaging enemies without the rest of your party and thus deserve surprise but that's not really something we want to count in the positive category...

Case 2: The creatures in question must effectively not spot anyone in the party for you to surprise them. That's a very very rare event and one that the dex dual weapon user might make happen 2 to 4 times as often as if he were replaced by a str heavy armor user - however, 4 times of a really tiny number is still a really tiny number and will have virtually no impact.

That's something else to consider, that dex fighters typically get better skills and better initiative. Maybe their damage should be a little less than a heavy armored great weapon user?

DM in my games always ignores the drawing sheathing 2 weapons. If your DM's don't and you think TWF absolutely sucks - this goes a long way toward helping it.

The ability to compentently use a bow is one of the biggest benefits of TWF over great weapon fighting. That's also a reason their damage maybe should be lower overall.

That party everyone was Dex based or trained in stealth. One or two may have had 14 Dex.

It's not hard to beat npc passive perception.

I don't think it's a problem that a great weapon deals more damage. Even then it's competitive tier two or even tier 3 if there is no fighter with a 3rd attack.

You get other benefits if Dex based. Switching to bows, stealth, skills. Without feats it's fine, it's the -5/+10 feats though that blow it out.

I let in a 3pp feat that lets you Stack str and Dex on light weapons. Extra 2-4 damage per attack helps. .

I recommend you buy that for $1 or houserules. Unless you play AL only.

doctorbadwolf · Jun 30, 2019

Even with feats, the TWF guy likely has two magic weapons later on, and can take greater advantage of bonuses to all attacks, along with all those other benefits, and the damage difference just isn’t that great even in later levels.

Its fine that GW fighters do more damage. Seriously, there is nothing wrong with that. Balance isn’t just DPR parity.

doctorbadwolf · Jun 30, 2019

Zardnaar said:
That party everyone was Dex based or trained in stealth. One or two may have had 14 Dex.

It's not hard to beat npc passive perception.

I don't think it's a problem that a great weapon deals more damage. Even then it's competitive tier two or even tier 3 if there is no fighter with a 3rd attack.

You get other benefits if Dex based. Switching to bows, stealth, skills. Without feats it's fine, it's the -5/+10 feats though that blow it out.

I let in a 3pp feat that lets you Stack str and Dex on light weapons. Extra 2-4 damage per attack helps. .

I recommend you buy that for $1 or houserules. Unless you play AL only.

I have thought about boosting the dual Wielder feat to give a small damage bonus on attacks while wielding two weapons, or perhaps adding a reaction attack when a melee attack misses you. Or both.

As for ambushing, there’s also group stealth checks. And magic heavy armors that don’t impose disadvantage on stealth, and Pass Without Trace.

We ambush people a lot, even in the campaign that has two plate armored heavies. With PWT, even a roll of 5 beats most monsters passive.

Zardnaar · Jun 30, 2019

Getting two light weapons is a problem, two magic weapons not so hard.

If you ignore things like needing a free hand to cast or drawing more than one item a round contributes towards making twf suck since that feat allows you to switch to bows same round vs putting great weapon away, missing your turn and then drawing a javelin or whatever (that situation makes the Battlemaster very good).

If you ignore rules you don't like and it contributes towards making things overpowered the problem isn't the rules.

Zardnaar · Jun 30, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
I have thought about boosting the dual Wielder feat to give a small damage bonus on attacks while wielding two weapons, or perhaps adding a reaction attack when a melee attack misses you. Or both.

As for ambushing, there’s also group stealth checks. And magic heavy armors that don’t impose disadvantage on stealth, and Pass Without Trace.

We ambush people a lot, even in the campaign that has two plate armored heavies. With PWT, even a roll of 5 beats most monsters passive.

Big fan of PWT. Individuals can still get surprise rounds and I had a halfling hiding behind others so lots of surprise rounds.

I still think the numbers are close enough except maybe fighters using the -5/+10 feats and the third attack. Action surge obviously but you don't really get enough to drastically alter the math.

doctorbadwolf · Jun 30, 2019

Zardnaar said:
Big fan of PWT. Individuals can still get surprise rounds and I had a halfling hiding behind others so lots of surprise rounds.

I think RAW surprise only happens for a whole “side”, but I do prefer to rule differently. If nothing else, the assassin is basically garbage in a game that isn’t lenient with getting surprise.

Zardnaar · Jun 30, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
I think RAW surprise only happens for a whole “side”, but I do prefer to rule differently. If nothing else, the assassin is basically garbage in a game that isn’t lenient with getting surprise.

Yep we allow individual surprise. We couldn't make the assassin work but we missed the interaction with cross bow expert which would make the class sing.

The stealth party thing works as well.

D&D 5E Consensus about two-weapon fighting?

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens

Yaarel

He Mage

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Zardnaar

Legend

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

Zardnaar

Legend

Zardnaar

Legend

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

Zardnaar

Legend

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