D&D 5E Please help out some new GM's with a few questions

ElterAgo · Jul 21, 2019

Ok, so our whole group is fairly new to 5thEd. A couple are new to the DM role (we rotate DM's). And a couple are completely new to PnP RPG's entirely.

I understand, "the DM can make it however he wants." However, since we are fairly new and rotating DM's, we decided to stick as close as we can to the rules as written for now (when there is a rule) and as close to the 'standard' game as we can when there isn't a rule. A few questions have come up. We are looking for what the rule is if there is one. Or how you would handle it if there isn't a rule.

1) PC's are just shy of 6th level. Approximately what total value of gear and wealth is normal for that point? I don't mind if they are a little low or high. But I don't want them incapable of completing the written adventures or walking through with no challenge.

2) Party has a wizard. Getting spells for his spellbook is incredibly cost prohibitive. At least if we are reading it correctly, he has to by a spell scroll and then spend almost that same amount again just to copy it into his book. Right now, he would rather just stay with the free ones he gets, rather than blowing all his money on just a few 1st level spells. Are we reading this wrong or is there a cheaper way to do this? He's about ready to chuck the whole wizard schtick as nearly hopeless.

3) Related to the above, is there a 'usual' cost for spells scrolls or for getting someone to teach you a spell? Can a cleric teach a spell to a wizard if the spell is on both of their spell lists? I'm trying to find ways to help this guy out.

4) Unless we are missing it, there is no rule for a mechanical benefit to having an opponent surrounded. Is that correct? Someone can defend against one attacker just as well as against 8 attackers? That just doesn't seem right.

5) Not a rules question, just advice. The party is getting ready to rescue/recover an infant creature or egg of something. I want it to end up as initially a sort of mascot for the city. And eventually provide the city with a significant but not overwhelming advantage. But I want this to happen over the course of the campaign, so something like a dragon that takes centuries to grow up won't really work. Do you have another suggestion for a creature?

Thanks for any assistance you can provide.

dave2008 · Jul 21, 2019

ElterAgo said:
Ok, so our whole group is fairly new to 5thEd. A couple are new to the DM role (we rotate GM's). And a couple are completely new to PnP RPG's entirely.

I understand, "the DM can make it however he wants."
Since we are fairly new and rotating GM's, we decided to stick as close as we can to the rules as written for now (when there is a rule) and as close to the 'standard' game as we can when there isn't a rule. A few questions have come up. We are looking for what the rule is if there is one. Or how you would handle it if there isn't a rule.

WE play pretty fast and loose with the rules, but I will give you my thoughts.

ElterAgo said:
1) PC's are just shy of 6th level. Approximately what total value of gear and wealth is normal for that point? I don't mind if they are a little low or high. But I don't want them incapable of completing the written adventures or walking through with no challenge.

I've never concerned myself with wealth or equipment by level. One of my groups is 10th level and they each of one magic item. I think they all got their item somewhere between 5th and 7th level. We don't keep track of wealth really. I give it to them, but no one writes it all down. We just assume they have enough to do what they need to do.

ElterAgo said:
2) Party has a wizard. Getting spells for his spellbook is incredibly cost prohibitive. At least if we are reading it correctly, he has to by a spell scroll and then spend almost that same amount again just to copy it into his book. Right now, he would rather just stay with the free ones he gets, rather than blowing all his money on just a few 1st level spells. Are we reading this wrong or is there a cheaper way to do this? He's about ready to chuck the whole wizard schtick as nearly hopeless.

Like I said, we don't track wealth. The wizard just has enough. That being said, scrolls can be found in treasure. Thus you only have the cost to transcribe the spell. From what I hear, people have more of a problem of what to spend all of there money on, not a lack of it.

ElterAgo said:
3) Related to the above, is there a 'usual' cost for spells scrolls or for getting someone to teach you a spell? Can a cleric teach a spell to a wizard if the spell is on both of their spell lists? I'm trying to find ways to help this guy out.

Sorry, can't help.

ElterAgo said:
4) Unless we are missing it, there is no rule for a mechanical benefit to having an opponent surrounded. Is that correct? Someone can defend against one attacker just as well as against 8 attackers? That just doesn't seem right.

There is the benefit that they can all attack the surrounded target. There is also the flanking optional rule that offers advantage to the attackers I believe. That is generally how I would handle that in 5e.

ElterAgo said:
5) Not a rules question, just advice. The party is getting ready to rescue/recover an infant creature or egg of something. I want it to end up as initially a sort of mascot for the city. And eventually provide the city with a significant but not overwhelming advantage. But I want this to happen over the course of the campaign, so something like a dragon that takes centuries to grow up won't really work. Do you have another suggestion for a creature?

Maybe a phoenix? I think you would possibly need to re-fluff it (I don't remember what the D&D fluff is), but that might do the trick. The one in MToF is CR16, but I found a young phoenix on the UA reddit that was only CR4.

Thanks for any assistance you can provide.[/QUOTE]

GreyLord · Jul 21, 2019

ElterAgo said:
3) Related to the above, is there a 'usual' cost for spells scrolls or for getting someone to teach you a spell? Can a cleric teach a spell to a wizard if the spell is on both of their spell lists? I'm trying to find ways to help this guy out.

Thanks for any assistance you can provide.

Most of the answers above are pretty good so not adding to them much...

I will say in this one, MY normal thing is that Clerics canot teach wizards spells and wizards cannot teach Clerics spells. Clerical Spells come from a Divine source, and Wizard spells from an arcane source.

Stormonu · Jul 21, 2019

ElterAgo said:
Ok, so our whole group is fairly new to 5thEd. A couple are new to the DM role (we rotate DM's). And a couple are completely new to PnP RPG's entirely.

I understand, "the DM can make it however he wants." However, since we are fairly new and rotating DM's, we decided to stick as close as we can to the rules as written for now (when there is a rule) and as close to the 'standard' game as we can when there isn't a rule. A few questions have come up. We are looking for what the rule is if there is one. Or how you would handle it if there isn't a rule.

1) PC's are just shy of 6th level. Approximately what total value of gear and wealth is normal for that point? I don't mind if they are a little low or high. But I don't want them incapable of completing the written adventures or walking through with no challenge.

Unlike 3E & 4E, 5E doesn't concern itself with "appropriate wealth" - that's left up to the DM. However, with my experience I'd say at about that level it's likely everyone should have at least one +1 weapon (perhaps the "core" fighter of the group having a +2), armor with a magic value of +1 and a handful of scrolls, potions and at least one minor miscellaneous item (like a bag of tricks, ring of resistance or somesuch). Gold value is a bit harder, as it depends on how often it being used and for what. From the sound of the wizard's costs below, probably about 300 gp on hand per PC might be about right.

ElterAgo said:
2) Party has a wizard. Getting spells for his spellbook is incredibly cost prohibitive. At least if we are reading it correctly, he has to by a spell scroll and then spend almost that same amount again just to copy it into his book. Right now, he would rather just stay with the free ones he gets, rather than blowing all his money on just a few 1st level spells. Are we reading this wrong or is there a cheaper way to do this? He's about ready to chuck the whole wizard schtick as nearly hopeless.

3) Related to the above, is there a 'usual' cost for spells scrolls or for getting someone to teach you a spell? Can a cleric teach a spell to a wizard if the spell is on both of their spell lists? I'm trying to find ways to help this guy out.

Capturing enemy spellbooks or finding scrolls is the wizard's best bet. Enemy wizard casters will need to refer back to their spellbooks to rememorize spells, so one the party has defeated them they should be able to track down the book (Detect Magic/Locate Object might be a good source for this). Of course, this option makes the wizard dependant on getting spells somewhat randomly.

If the Wizard is charismatic, it may be possible for him to trade or purchase spells in settled communities - perhaps allowing a fellow wizard scribe a spell from his book in return for a copy from the friendly wizard.

Unfortunately, Clerics & Paladins can't teach the Wizard spells as Divine magic is a "gift from the gods". A permissive DM may allow a wizard to "research" a spell from a Sorcerer, Warlock or Bard (basically any Arcane caster), but the character would need to interpret the spell as the three classes don't quite perform magic the same way a wizard does - their magic is a bit more ingrained into their being rather than being a memorized formula.

ElterAgo said:
4) Unless we are missing it, there is no rule for a mechanical benefit to having an opponent surrounded. Is that correct? Someone can defend against one attacker just as well as against 8 attackers? That just doesn't seem right.

I seem to recall that multiple attackers on a single foe get a +2 bonus to hit, but that may have been just a playtest thing. I think there is an advanced option in the DMG to allow multiple attackers to gain Advantage. Anyway, I wouldn't say that an 8 on 1 fight in DND is anything a character wants to be a victim of - eight blows vs. one tends to end poorly for the person only able to lash back at one attacker at a time.

ElterAgo said:
5) Not a rules question, just advice. The party is getting ready to rescue/recover an infant creature or egg of something. I want it to end up as initially a sort of mascot for the city. And eventually provide the city with a significant but not overwhelming advantage. But I want this to happen over the course of the campaign, so something like a dragon that takes centuries to grow up won't really work. Do you have another suggestion for a creature?

Griffons, Owlbears and Wyverns come to mind, though the latter would be a bit more difficult to control. It would also be more significant to the campaign if the party needs to interact with the beast from time to time - especially if they are involved in some way with its upbringing & training; something a ranger or druid would be geared towards, as well as possibly a paladin (who might be able to ride it into a battle or two as a mount).

If you did want to do a dragon as a mascot, age isn't the only way to make a dragon grow. According to old lore in the Council of Wyrms campaign, dragons can grow quicker than normal by accumulating large quantities of treasure that they bond to (in 5E terms, item attunement). I would suggest something like 1,000 gp/HD of growth or such - either from accumulated wealth of the growing city or PCs willingly giving up treasure (including magical items) to enlarge the beast. Just be sure in the latter case the PCs understand they aren't loaning the magic item - the dragon has to hoard it and won't be using it for the benefit of the party.
Thanks for any assistance you can provide.[/QUOTE]

Shiroiken · Jul 21, 2019

ElterAgo said:
Ok, so our whole group is fairly new to 5thEd. A couple are new to the DM role (we rotate DM's). And a couple are completely new to PnP RPG's entirely.

I understand, "the DM can make it however he wants." However, since we are fairly new and rotating DM's, we decided to stick as close as we can to the rules as written for now (when there is a rule) and as close to the 'standard' game as we can when there isn't a rule. A few questions have come up. We are looking for what the rule is if there is one. Or how you would handle it if there isn't a rule.

Really quick, really important question: do you keep the same characters rotating DMs, or are they different games completely. If it's different, any variations you might have will likely be overlooked (I play with similar players over 3 games, one of which I DM; my houserules are generally accepted as only for my game). If you it doesn't change, I'd suggest a voting system when weird things come up. The DM should make a judgement call, but then after the session everyone who DMs should discuss it and see how that might be handled in the future.

ElterAgo said:
1) PC's are just shy of 6th level. Approximately what total value of gear and wealth is normal for that point? I don't mind if they are a little low or high. But I don't want them incapable of completing the written adventures or walking through with no challenge.

PCs are expected to have the same starting wealth no matter what level they are. In reality, they'll have more than that, but for balance, other than buying better armor and a few odds and ends, wealth has very little influence on character power in most games.

ElterAgo said:
2) Party has a wizard. Getting spells for his spellbook is incredibly cost prohibitive. At least if we are reading it correctly, he has to by a spell scroll and then spend almost that same amount again just to copy it into his book. Right now, he would rather just stay with the free ones he gets, rather than blowing all his money on just a few 1st level spells. Are we reading this wrong or is there a cheaper way to do this? He's about ready to chuck the whole wizard schtick as nearly hopeless.

Of course we have one of those odds and ends. Wizards are technically well balanced just using the free spells by level. The best method for getting new spells is to find scrolls in adventures and copy those over, but that is of course DM dependent. The more spells you can find, the more versatile the wizard, but other than adding rituals, it really doesn't increase the power of the wizard that much.

ElterAgo said:
3) Related to the above, is there a 'usual' cost for spells scrolls or for getting someone to teach you a spell? Can a cleric teach a spell to a wizard if the spell is on both of their spell lists? I'm trying to find ways to help this guy out.

Buying magic items is game dependent, and a lot of games do not allow the buying and selling of magic items. If you guys agree to buy and sell items, I'd use the DMG price list, but don't forget that consumables (like scrolls) cost half as much. This might help the wizard out a bit.

ElterAgo said:
4) Unless we are missing it, there is no rule for a mechanical benefit to having an opponent surrounded. Is that correct? Someone can defend against one attacker just as well as against 8 attackers? That just doesn't seem right.

There is a flanking benefit option in the DMG. I highly advise against using, because it makes advantage in combat a trivial matter. The downside of being surrounded is the number of attacks incoming, because statistically some of those are going to hit (you can also use the Mob optional rule in the DMG to simplify lots of monsters/npcs).

ElterAgo said:
5) Not a rules question, just advice. The party is getting ready to rescue/recover an infant creature or egg of something. I want it to end up as initially a sort of mascot for the city. And eventually provide the city with a significant but not overwhelming advantage. But I want this to happen over the course of the campaign, so something like a dragon that takes centuries to grow up won't really work. Do you have another suggestion for a creature?

If a good aligned city, a pegasus or unicorn would be a major point of prestige, but realize that almost every creature is going to take a decade or so in game time to become any kind of significant advantage.

Tony Vargas · Jul 21, 2019

ElterAgo said:
I understand, "the DM can make it however he wants."

Its all you need, but it helps to give the impression you're following /something, an AP, even just notes you made earlier. Its ok to just make it all up, it's better not to project that you are.

1) PC's are just shy of 6th level. Approximately what total value of gear and wealth is normal for that point?

There is none. Wealth & mundane gear have little impact on PCs ability to meet challenges.

2) Party has a wizard. Getting spells for his spellbook is incredibly cost prohibitive.
, he would rather just stay with the free ones he gets

That should be adequate to keep the wizard viable. More spells from captured spellbook is just gravy.

Related to the above, is there a 'usual' cost for spells scrolls or for getting someone to teach you a spell?

Scrolls are magic items and not assumed in 5e progression, you sgould be able to get by without them.

Can a cleric teach a spell to a wizard if the spell is on both of their spell lists?

No.

Unless we are missing it, there is no rule for a mechanical benefit to having an opponent surrounded. Is that correct?

Well, he can't get away.
But, for PCs, no - though one or even half of you could use the help action - for some monsters just having an ally adjacent to their target grants advantage.
Generally, though outnumbering a foe 8:1 is plenty of mechanical benefit.

Someone can defend against one attacker just as well as against 8 attackers? That just doesn't seem right.

Well, not in a practical sense: he'll be beaten down about 8x as fast.

5) Not a rules question, just advice. The party is getting ready to rescue/recover an infant creature or egg of something. I want it to end up as initially a sort of mascot for the city. And eventually provide the city with a significant but not overwhelming advantage. But I want this to happen over the course of the campaign, so something like a dragon that takes centuries to grow up won't really work. Do you have another suggestion for a creature?
.

whatever you decide it'll be, look at things like summons, the beastmaster ranger, Essentials sidekicks, and the like to get an idea how to stat it out.
Keep in mind an NPC you control can be quite different from one controlled by a player, too.

Zardnaar · Jul 21, 2019

It's not really stated but I assume you can copy from other spellbooks and larger cities might have a wizards guild or library you can pay to copy spells from.

ElterAgo · Jul 21, 2019

Hmm...

When we rotate DM's it is the same PC's. Whoever is DM at that point just has his PC off doing something else or down with an illness. We aren't tracking XP, just leveling up every few sessions of game time or when needed for the next written adventure.

When I said the "total value of gear and wealth" I meant that to include the magic items.

From what the one guy stated about the amount of magic items their group has, I would say we are well behind that level. I think each character has 1 magic item. I would say they are mostly better than just a +1 item. I think 1 PC has 2 items, but they are pretty niche use. then there are a few scrolls and several healing potions. We've mostly just been going with what is stated within the written adventures we have been using. Maybe we need to bump that up a bit.

The creature probably won't be something that the PC's interact with very much in the future unless they want to make that happen. This is primarily to make the PC's heroically visible to the inhabitants of the city as benefactors (as opposed to the common wandering-trouble-maker-murder-hobos). Also to keep that reputation alive should they decide to stay in this city that is heading toward war with the stone giants.

It isn't about base combat power with the wizard. It is about the versatility he was expecting as wizard. The group found out an expected opponent was vulnerable to (iirc) electricity. He didn't have any electricity spells. We've had a number of occasions where disguise self or locate object (or some other non-combat utility spell) would have been useful. If he's just going to have the same few spells all the time, he might as well have been a sorcerer and not worry about the book at all.

Sword of Spirit · Jul 21, 2019

1) There is no expected wealth, and the example given is higher than estimates of what you will have rolling for treasure hoards using the DMG tables. Someone has put together some average totals if you do use those tables, but I can’t search for the link at the moment. Xanathar’s Guide to Everything also has a section explaining what those numbers might be and more information about it. So there is a “The designers know how many magic items you will have if you roll on the random tables” but there is also “challenges are designed to be balanced as if you had no magic items”. So if you have magic items the challenges are easier. In particular if everyone can get past that resistance to damage from non-magical slashing/piercing/bludgeoning, a lot of opponents are a lot easier, as they effectively have half as many hit points as they would if no one could get past that resistance.

2) At very low level, and advancing as fast as the default leveling assumptions, the wizard won’t have much opportunity to expand their spellbook. There isn’t a cheaper way, it is one of the few money sinks in the system.

3) It’s better to copy from captured spell books than scrolls, because there is a chance the copy will fail with the scroll, and the item is destroyed either way. The more wizards you defeat, the more spells you can get. As far as access, paying to swap spells with NPC wizards can also make sense, though there are no prices for it. There isn’t really a magic item economy, and the prices they suggest don’t make sense compared to the cost of real estate and armor and the scarcity of magic items they suggest. Unless you are fine with it not making any sense (in which case take your pick of the DMG version or the Xanathar’s version) magic item sales/purchases is DIY (or find a scheme someone else has made and use it).

4) It works like that for a reason. I strongly discourage using the optional flanking rules. They aren’t balanced with the rest of the game.

5) If it is going to provide combat might and you are talking about a city rather a village, you’ll need to start looking at high CR monsters. The phoenix idea might work, but there aren’t a lot of high CR creatures that have a normal life cycle and tell you how long it takes to reach maturity. Remember that unless it is immune to non-magical weapons, a couple hundred basic guards/soldiers can kill it with arrows.

ad_hoc · Jul 21, 2019

The game doesn't assume magic items and also doesn't have constraints on how many can be acquired.

For example, there is no assumption that PCs have magic weapons.

I suggest using the treasure hoard tables in the DMG. They're a fun way to make magic items special. Whether you get one at all and what it is isn't determined ahead of time which adds appreciation.

Finding a magic weapon in a treasure hoard is a cause for celebration for example. A simple +1 Longsword can be very memorable when it isn't treated as a guaranteed piece of mundane equipment.