D&D 5E A new Golden Age for D&D

As I wrote in this thread and as pointed out by [MENTION=22260]TerraDave[/MENTION] here, D&D is not only surviving but thriving, yet it seems that there is still a long of whinging about the game, about future plans, about how Mearls & Co are not doing things the right way (that is, the way I Know Things Should Be Done). Now I will admit to having complained about the light product schedule, preferring a bit more - in particular, campaign settings, one-shot adventures, and tools for DMs like myself who prefer a middle-ground between story arcs and home-brewing everything. As Mearls pointed out recently, there are many 40+ DMs out there with kids and careers that want pre-made stuff to use. Now unfortunately WotC has mainly only served those who want to entirely use pre-packaged products; I for one like to use my own world, but would like one-shot adventures and encounters and sites to plop into it.

But that aside, D&D is doing quite well. 5E is a great game and embraced by a huge percentage of the community. The game is thriving, the core rule books are selling extremely well, there are movies and other goodies on the horizon, and plans for more table-top product. I for one am willing to not only give WotC the benefit of the doubt, but enjoy the game as it is, for it is a great game that is doing quite well by any measure.

Now I don't mean to be that annoying person who says, "I'm tired of complaining, so now you should stop too." I'm not even saying don't complain, don't talk about what you want. I will most likely continue to say "Settings and one-shots, please!" I'm just trying to put it in a larger context, the context being that of a thriving game and a popular edition with a shocking lack of in-fighting (edition warring). I did have the thought at one point that if 5E has its own version of edition warring, it is the skirmish between those that are happy with what WotC is doing and those that are not, or more mildly those that are happy with current out-put of product and those that want more. But even that is very mild compared to the bloodbath of 2008-09, or even the years before and after the height of the 4Edition Wars.

So here's the point of this thread, if I have to spell it out: We are experiencing good times for D&D, even another Golden Age, I would dare say. It is always difficult to see where one is in a larger historical context; that is, to contextualize now, one's current time and space within a larger context. But I think WotC has really nailed it with 5E. I think the slow roll-out is a wise course of action, despite being a tad frustrating at times. I also think them being quiet on announcements until a month or two before release is a good thing, especially when you realize what it entails--and what Jeremy Crawford just said: that WotC has many products in the works, which could be announced at any time.

So good times, a Golden Age even. But we need to be able to enjoy it, and we can enjoy it by recognizing it for what it is. Now it may not be the golden halcyon era of the 1970s, or the thriving boom of the 80s, or the rekindling renaissance of the early days of 3E and the OGL. It is a different sort of age, but a golden age nonetheless. Enjoy it my friends, for it won't last forever.

In conclusion, I am reminded of this scene from my favorite movie of all time:

[video=youtube;DaDo9PyCeLQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaDo9PyCeLQ[/video]

Key quote (from Merlin): "Look upon this moment. Savor it. Rejoice with great gladness, great gladness. Remember it always, for you are joined by it. You are one, under the stars. Remember it well then, this night, this great victory, so that in the years ahead you can say, 'I was there that night, with Arthur the King.' For it is the doom of men that they forget."

The "Golden Age" of D&D has been gone and will most likely not return any time soon if ever.

5th edition is a great game but it is by far not bringing the hobby into another "Golden Age".

I disagree. I think it is a "new" Golden Age, but not the Golden Age of notalgia. I think that 5e is a vastly better game than any that cam e before, but the hobby has grown fat, bloated, complacent. Grognards want what 1e was, munchkins want what 4e was, those that became disllusioned went to PF with 3.5e.

D&D sales are strong, the number of people playing, (not reading, not talking about playing, but ACTUALLY playing) has grown substantially and the facts prove it.

So yeah, we could complain about what 5e isnt', about how its not our 'preferred' edition, or we can shut up, pick up the PHB, join/start a game, and see for yourself how vastly improved a game it is, not perfect, IMPROVED.

chibi graz'zt said:

I disagree. I think it is a "new" Golden Age, but not the Golden Age of notalgia. I think that 5e is a vastly better game than any that cam e before, but the hobby has grown fat, bloated, complacent. Grognards want what 1e was, munchkins want what 4e was, those that became disllusioned went to PF with 3.5e.

D&D sales are strong, the number of people playing, (not reading, not talking about playing, but ACTUALLY playing) has grown substantially and the facts prove it.

So yeah, we could complain about what 5e isnt', about how its not our 'preferred' edition, or we can shut up, pick up the PHB, join/start a game, and see for yourself how vastly improved a game it is, not perfect, IMPROVED.

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What evidence is there that shows there are more players now than there were in the past?

I think 2E and 3E were the Golden Eras of D&D. The peak of 2E was a pretty amazing time. 2E I would call the game store era. Game stores were thriving when 2E was at its peak and there tournaments and store games everywhere. I remember being able to find stores thriving on D&D everywhere during the 2E era.

I've never seem the game so active as it was during 3E. The OGL was an amazing creation that grew the community and allowed it to thrive as it had never before. I would consider 3E the "3rd party" era where D&D formed the central city of a massive empire of gaming.

5E has a long ways to go to match those two eras. It's starting off well enough. It's getting the most media exposure of any edition with shows like Critical Role and Chris Perkins pushing the game amongst celebs. Way more of a mainstream push than I've ever seen.

Let's also not forget that this may not be a Golden Era for D&D on the table top, but it may be one for video games and movies. We'll have to see.

Corpsetaker said:

The "Golden Age" of D&D has been gone and will most likely not return any time soon if ever.

5th edition is a great game but it is by far bringing the hobby into another "Golden Age".

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Mythologically speaking, there are two versions of the Golden Age and historical ages in general. One version, more prevalent in the West (Greece, Abrahamic religion) is that the Golden Age was a one-time affair, it was Eden, and we fell from it. The other version, more prevalent in the East (especially Hindu), is that ages are cyclical: we "Fall" from a Golden Age to ages of less and less enlightenment until we come to the Dark Age, and then we rise back up again (there's a third version in which the "Golden Age" is more of a state of consciousness and thus ever-present, if we are only able to recognize it...but that's another conversation).

I think there is truth to all versions, but tend to prefer the Hindu/Eastern version, because it mirrors the cycles of nature: day and night, the seasons, etc. Golden Ages come and go, and each time they are different. It is never how it once was, but there are also new things to explore and enjoy. There's a direct correlation between how much we live in the past, wishing for what no longer is and probably can never be again, and how much we enjoy the present.

So maybe if we take a more linear, Western perspective, then the Golden Age is gone - but there are still "echoes" and renaissances in which that "golden light" is captured again, in a new form.

I think D&D is doing well, and there are a lot of positives about it (finally getting the movie rights lawsuit done is HUGE, sort of like finally getting Osama Bin Laden But it's not the golden age, nor ever will.

In my opinion, the golden age was the early to mid 80s, and it's not even close. That's when the game took off exponentially in popularity. We'll never see growth like that again. It's when the game was seen played in every library at every school. It's when there were actual D&D clubs at schools. It was where D&D books were sold in mainstream stores and toy stores. If a store sold any type of book, you could find D&D books there too. We had the D&D cartoon. Revenues were soaring. That era has the overwhelmingly majority of iconic adventures. It was an era that gave us Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Manual of the Planes, and Dragonlance. And it was undisputed king of the hill for RPGs.

I can't agree that this is a golden age of D&D. That was clearly either the height of its boom in the 80s under TSR or arguably during the high points of the 3/3.5 run. While I personally loved 4e, I am under no illusions it was a golden age in the sense that you mean.

5e is a successful game is and popular and selling well by all accounts. But the very fact that you felt you needed to post this topic suggests to me that you sense that there is an undercurrent of negativity about the game, the developer, the product schedule, GenCon, etc. Negativity may be par for the course on the internet but it is still of some concern.

In addition, there is just plain less of 5e D&D than there was with past editions. Less products. No Dragon or Dungeon magazine. No online tools. Even the boards like this one seem less active to me in my own subjective view. I know a lot of people argue less is more but for me, more is more, and just looking at the shelf at the gaming store relative to past editions suggests its not a golden age.

Its hard to see it as a golden age under these circumstances.

That being said, it still could become one. I liked some of what Mearls had to say recently even if I assume some of it is spin (this is not meant pejoratively, marketing is an important part of his job). If some of that promise gets fulfilled, I think it will be good for the game. I just hope he actually has the resources to do it. Plus it is absolutely great that you are having a blast with the game. It can be a golden age for you and your circle of friends regardless of whether the same feeling is universal.

Celtavian said:

I think 2E and 3E were the Golden Eras of D&D. The peak of 2E was a pretty amazing time. 2E I would call the game store era. Game stores were thriving when 2E was at its peak and there tournaments and store games everywhere. I remember being able to find stores thriving on D&D everywhere during the 2E era.

I've never seem the game so active as it was during 3E. The OGL was an amazing creation that grew the community and allowed it to thrive as it had never before. I would consider 3E the "3rd party" era where D&D formed the central city of a massive empire of gaming.

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Maybe each edition cycle has a Golden Age - usually the first few years, then with a gradual decline and then a resurgence and new Golden Age with a new edition.

Celtavian said:

5E has a long ways to go to match those two eras. It's starting off well enough. It's getting the most media exposure of any edition with shows like Critical Role and Chris Perkins pushing the game amongst celebs. Way more of a mainstream push than I've ever seen.

Let's also not forget that this may not be a Golden Era for D&D on the table top, but it may be one for video games and movies. We'll have to see.

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We run into problems when we think in terms of "matching" previous eras. Prior ages will never be matched, which is why I said "a new" Golden Age rather than a return to "the" Golden Age. Each one will be different.

Sacrosanct said:

I think D&D is doing well, and there are a lot of positives about it (finally getting the movie rights lawsuit done is HUGE, sort of like finally getting Osama Bin Laden But it's not the golden age, nor ever will.

In my opinion, the golden age was the early to mid 80s, and it's not even close. That's when the game took off exponentially in popularity. We'll never see growth like that again. It's when the game was seen played in every library at every school. It's when there were actual D&D clubs at schools. It was where D&D books were sold in mainstream stores and toy stores. If a store sold any type of book, you could find D&D books there too. We had the D&D cartoon. Revenues were soaring. That era has the overwhelmingly majority of iconic adventures. It was an era that gave us Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Manual of the Planes, and Dragonlance. And it was undisputed king of the hill for RPGs.

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Again, "a" not "the." Perhaps it is most natural for us to think in terms of "the" - we think linearly in the modern West, because of the two influences of Abrahamic religion and evolutionary science - both have an overall linear, directional perspective on time.

But what if we think cyclically? Or even integrate the two, and think in terms of spirals? Both the ancient Greeks, primarily through Hesiod, and Hindu culture posited a four-age cycle of gold/satya, silver/treta, bronze/dwapara, and iron/kali. These four ages were a descent and a decline, but some variants saw it as a cycle where after the iron/dark age, there is either a return to the gold/satya age or an ascent back up through the ages, sort of like spring coming after winter.

So what if each edition has four ages, like so:
Golden/Satya - the early years, initial growth and excitement.
Silver/Treta - the middle years, or plateau phase. In a way this is the "full flowering" of the edition before obvious decline, but it doesn't quite have that initial life. First glimmers of what will eventually become decline.
Bronze/Dwapara - the late years, or decline. The edition is still going, but it is starting to encounter problems. This is generally where bloat is in full effect.
Iron/Kali - the collapse and end of the edition, and gap between editions.

Lojak said:

I can't agree that this is a golden age of D&D. That was clearly either the height of its boom in the 80s under TSR or arguably during the high points of the 3/3.5 run. While I personally loved 4e, I am under no illusions it was a golden age in the sense that you mean.

5e is a successful game is and popular and selling well by all accounts. But the very fact that you felt you needed to post this topic suggests to me that you sense that there is an undercurrent of negativity about the game, the developer, the product schedule, GenCon, etc. Negativity may be par for the course on the internet but it is still of some concern.

In addition, there is just plain less of 5e D&D than there was with past editions. Less products. No Dragon or Dungeon magazine. No online tools. Even the boards like this one seem less active to me in my own subjective view. I know a lot of people argue less is more but for me, more is more, and just looking at the shelf at the gaming store relative to past editions suggests its not a golden age.

Its hard to see it as a golden age under these circumstances.

That being said, it still could become one. I liked some of what Mearls had to say recently even if I assume some of it is spin (this is not meant pejoratively, marketing is an important part of his job). If some of that promise gets fulfilled, I think it will be good for the game. I just hope he actually has the resources to do it. Plus it is absolutely great that you are having a blast with the game. It can be a golden age for you and your circle of friends regardless of whether the same feeling is universal.

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It is hard to argue with this and I think you emphasize an important point in that last sentence, which relates to my third variant of "Golden Age theory" in a mythic sense - that the Golden Age is a state of consciousness that can be accessed in the here and now. In this context, it is at the game table.

One thing worth considering is that if we look to the past for what we consider to be a Golden Age, we will likely be disappointed about the present. 5E is, and will likely continue to be, different from editions past. I do think the product output will eventually and gradually increase, although (hopefully imo) never to the excesses of past editions. Using the Cycle of Ages, and the inevitability of moving through them towards decline, my sense is that Mearls & Co are trying to, at the least, slow the process so that we don't burn through the early "good" phases so quickly. That is one of the reasons we're not seeing as much product and why I don't agree with you that "more is more."

I see it like a fire - too much wood added and you smother it, too little and it goes out. We've seen the fire put out in editions past. I think they're putting on the minimum to keep it going and will gradually increase it a bit, but with an eye on not smothering it. To the degree that they can find that sweetspot, or range, of "just enough wood" is the degree to which they can keep this edition going--and thriving--for as long as possible.