Orcus vs. Demogorgon

Mouseferatu · Jun 24, 2018

I hate to say it--because I love Demogorgon, and I love most of what I've read of MToF--but the more I look at it, the more I feel like Demogorgon just isn't up to snuff in 5E.

First off, he's among the least interesting of the Demon Lords in terms of combat. Nearly all of them have really interesting tricks they can pull. The only thing Demogorgon has that even leans in that direction is his trio of gaze attacks.

And those are made a joke by the whole "You can avert your gaze to automatically succeed" thing. Making a gaze attack takes up Demogorgon's entire action. It's not a bonus; it's not something he can do as part of multiattack. He looks at you, you look away, his turn is over. Yes, there are the various advantage/disadvantage issues I mentioned previously, but that's not really enough when dealing with one character out of an entire party.

"Oh, but he can still take legendary actions!"

Yeah. Two. Not the three that are standard to nearly all legendary creatures. Two. One of which is... Another gaze attack that can be looked away from.

Yes, as the DM, I can adjust. I'm very well aware. I'd still be happier if the Prince of Demons actually lived up to the name as written.

MonsterEnvy · Jun 24, 2018

Sword of Spirit said:
The only way to reconcile the idea of Tiamat (a lesser god afraid of Asmodeus) as Takhisis (a greater creator god and one of the three (not counting the High God or Chaos) most powerful deities of Krynn) is to invoke the sidebar on divine ranks and say that Tiamat is an avatar of Takhisis. In my estimation, a permanent avatar who has gained at least a degree of independence, since she lives somewhere different and interacts with the rest of the multiverse, while Takhisis doesn’t bother with any place but Krynn.

From the DMG

The dragon essence within the orb might want many things: the annihilation of a particular people, freedom from the orb, to spread suffering in the world, to advance the worship of Takhisis (Tiamat’s name on Krynn), or something else the DM decides.

The Sidebar explains it simply Deities can have different Divine Ranks on different worlds. Tiamat is a Greater God in Kyrnn, but a lesser god most elsewhere. As a result she is stronger there.

Mouseferatu said:
I hate to say it--because I love Demogorgon, and I love most of what I've read of MToF--but the more I look at it, the more I feel like Demogorgon just isn't up to snuff in 5E.

First off, he's among the least interesting of the Demon Lords in terms of combat. Nearly all of them have really interesting tricks they can pull. The only thing Demogorgon has that even leans in that direction is his trio of gaze attacks.

And those are made a joke by the whole "You can avert your gaze to automatically succeed" thing. Making a gaze attack takes up Demogorgon's entire action. It's not a bonus; it's not something he can do as part of multiattack. He looks at you, you look away, his turn is over. Yes, there are the various advantage/disadvantage issues I mentioned previously, but that's not really enough when dealing with one character out of an entire party.

"Oh, but he can still take legendary actions!"

Yeah. Two. Not the three that are standard to nearly all legendary creatures. Two. One of which is... Another gaze attack that can be looked away from.

Yes, as the DM, I can adjust. I'm very well aware. I'd still be happier if the Prince of Demons actually lived up to the name as written.

Thats why I buffed Demogorgon and gave him his gazes as part of his multi attack.

Mirtek · Jun 24, 2018

MonsterEnvy said:
The Sidebar explains it simply Deities can have different Divine Ranks on different worlds. Tiamat is a Greater God in Kyrnn, but a lesser god most elsewhere. As a result she is stronger there.

Which unforutnately does not explain anything. Since there is only one Tiamat, she can have only one true rank if you go to visit her in her true form.

So either she's tuly a greater deity but her divien connections to Oerth and Toril are still not well etablished and she can't send much power through. Or she's truly a lesser deity (which all points to), and there's a special reason power she sends to Krynn is multiplied. However this still means if some party from Krynn prepared to battle a greater power planeshifts to her lair, they're in for a pleasant surprice finding her much weaker than expected.

However, has Takhisis rank in 5e being stated? If 5e simply says she's a lesser deity too, we don't have to find any explanations anyway.

Sébastien Urbanek · Jul 9, 2018

I was very upset to see the stat blocks of the demon lords. In the MM the demons can, as a variant summon other demons but demon lords can't do this...they can't summon thrall to help them in a fight...the same for the archdevils...

cbwjm · Jul 9, 2018

SÃ[emoji767 said:
bastien Urbanek;7459547]I was very upset to see the stat blocks of the demon lords. In the MM the demons can, as a variant summon other demons but demon lords can't do this...they can't summon thrall to help them in a fight...the same for the archdevils...

Of course they can. Any DM that decides they can summon in some demons can just add that to the demon lord or archdevil.

Eric V · Jul 9, 2018

cbwjm said:
Of course they can. Any DM that decides they can summon in some demons can just add that to the demon lord or archdevil.

...

Pretty sure he's talking about the stats of the Demon Lord as designed by the designers of the game, found in the product he bought.

Thank you for the reminder that the DM can do anything, though.

Bacon Bits · Jul 9, 2018

If I recall the lore correctly, Orcus with his wand has always been more than a match for Demogorgon. The problems come from:

Orcus often doesn't have his wand. It's been lost/stolen/hidden/etc. many times.
Demons hate undead, so Orcus has far fewer demons that follow him. Orcus has to rely on the undead because he can't attract fiends. Note that Orcus hates undead, as well.
Demons also really respect Demogorgon and follow him in droves.

So, individually, Orcus with his wand can probably defeat Demogorgon, but Orcus will never get the chance to prove it.

Sword of Spirit · Jul 9, 2018

My current thoughts on how to handle it are:

1) Add his gaze to Multiattack
2) 3 Legendary actions
3) Teleport 120' as a legendary action option

With the gaze not taking his attacks, that leaves it open to just make an opponent fight him blind, so a boost (slight against Orcus) to his dpr and effective hp.

3 legendary actions because the assumed reason for only 2 was not allowing heads to look at more than two people--which doesn't even work because he can use his action to also aim a head. So this allows him to blind more opponents.

Teleport because he can't fly, and the archdevils can teleport.

This doesn't make him an autowin against Orcus by any means, but it makes him a much better match, and makes it harder for anyone to cheese victories from him due to unnecessary limitations.

Gwarok · Jul 9, 2018

CTurbo said:
Orcus's 500hp undead is his most OP feature

Pretty sure neither of them want a piece of my Halfing Frenzy Barb with a Light Hammer though lol

Yea, the first time I saw that I thought about Orcus plus 3 Liches. The Liches just cast Fly and hammer Demogorgon with Magic Missiles, starting with their 9th level slots and working their way down. That's 115.5hp on the first round, ~ 105hp on the second, etc...., with Orcus cleaning his nails with an emery board, looking up occasionally to see if his Liches are done yet.

That's when it hit me that if I was basically using Demon Prince's like UFC fighters in a ring I'm probably failing miserably at being a DM.

cbwjm · Jul 9, 2018

Eric V said:
...

Pretty sure he's talking about the stats of the Demon Lord as designed by the designers of the game, found in the product he bought.

Thank you for the reminder that the DM can do anything, though.

You're welcome. Some people seem to forget.

Orcus vs. Demogorgon

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