Mearls On D&D's Design Premises/Goals

First of all, thanks Morrus for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes. That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to...

First of all, thanks [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes.

That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to fans of the other, but those differences do matter. There are ways in which I like the prescriptive elements of 3.x era games (I like set skill difficulty lists, for example) but I tend to run by the seat of my pants and the effects of my beer, so a fast and loose and forgiving version like 5E really enables me running a game the way I like to.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I’m inclined to agree. For me, options speak to replayability.

Dude, how many different D&D characters do you play in a year? Don't include one-shots at cons, because those don't really give you a full experience of playing a character. How many campaign characters do you play in a year?

The 5e PHB has a full dozen character classes. Even if we leave out the various choices within each class, you get a dozen distinct campaign characters out of that. If a campaign runs something around a year... we have a decade of play there? But 5e is said to not have enough options?

So, whatever your own proclivities, I don't see "replayablity" as the broad issue. I think is it far simpler.

My wife crochets. A lot. She has a spinning wheel, and fiber to spin. She's got a large stash of yarn she's bought and yarn she's made, a fistful or two of hooks, and a library of patterns. Because when you are *making* a thing, you need options to make the thing you want, the way you want it - for a shawl, there's the material the yarn is made of, and it's thickness and texture, it's color, and the pattern and size-gauge of the stitches, all impacting the final product and its characteristics.

Broadly, having options is about being able to *craft* your character. If play is significantly about Making a Thing and putting it through its paces, then you need a lot of mechanical options, or you aren't really Making a Thing.
 

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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
...you might want to start designing it on your own, as I'm not expecting WotC to be designing it anytime soon.
Neither do I, but that’s goals for you. They’re long-term things.

They can be, but the point is they don't have to be and don't need to be; one character can still play very differently from another character even if their underlying mechanical chassis - class, race, stats, feats, abilities, etc. - is exactly the same.
Sure, and I’ve never suggested that you need different mechanical options to play characters differently. That doesn’t mean the game wouldn’t be improved by having them, though. We don’t need any rules at all, but most folks seem to like having at least some.

My experience differs.

As soon as any player - or any DM, for that matter - is faced with any decision on one side of which lies mechanical advantage and on the other side of which lies roleplaying and-or character consistency then they're at odds.
Only if they decided to play a character that wouldn’t take the tactically advantageous option. Which is a valid choice, but is not the only valid choice.

And the best way to ensure this sort of decision arises as infrequently as possible is to file down or entirely remove any mechanical advantages that may be gained, thus putting roleplay and character personality front and center and strongly nudging decisions to be based off of those elements first.
Why on earth would you want to make character decisions arise less frequently in D&D? That’s the whole point of the game, imagining yourself as a character and making decisions as you think that character would. You know, roleplaying. The act of deciding between the tactically advantageous action and the action that is most consistent with your character’s motivations is itself roleplaying, and to assume that the tactically advantageous option is somehow a less authentic roleplaying choice assumes that characters’ motivations cannot change over time.

Well, in the entire history of D&D you've pretty much always only ever had one choice of race per character;
Except in the 3 Editions where you’ve had racial Feat options and the one where some races were expressed or enhanced through classes and paragon paths?

you've usually only had one choice of class-and-subclass* per character;
Except the edition where you got to choose a class, a sub-class, a paragon path, and an epic destiny, each of which had further sub-options in the form of powers?

and you haven't always had the choice of feats and skills customization that you do in 5e. So I rather fail to see your point here.
Um, for 10 years, I had considerably more choice of Feats and skills customization that I do in 5e, and my point is, those player-facing options didn’t need to go away to satisfy the design goal of making the DM-Facing options more flexible. 3e and 4e messed up by trying to DM-proof the rules, I absolutely agree. But 5e didn’t have to take away the rich character customization those edititions offered to fix that problem. I find 5e an improvement over 3e and 4e because of the changes to the DM-facing rules, but I think a game with 5e’s philosophy towards DM-Facing rules and a 4e-like wealth of player-Facing options would be better than either.

Lan-"mechanically, I might just be a basic standard Fighter, but get to know me and you'll soon find I'm like no other Fighter you ever knew"-efan
Charla- “Good for you, I can do lots of fancy maneuvers and I’m like no other Fighter you ever knew” -quin
 


Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
True, I do feel sorry for the 4e folks who really just dont have jack :):):):) anymore.

As for cant pleasing everyone. That's definitely true it still I feel they could have done something to not just dash a chunk of their fanbase to the rocks.

Maybe something like a WW/Onyx Path Press Translation guide?
They promised up, down, and sideways that 5e would be modular, with the ability to be customized to emulate the style of whatever edition you preferred. But then when the playtest was coming to a close, and we asked, “hey, what about those modular options? Still waiting for something that can let us emulate the style of our preferred edition...” they said, “What’s the matter, the Battlemaster Fighter not enough for you?”
 

I've read this several times since 5th Edition was released but I don't get it. I started with 2E and I felt like 2E had an enormous amount of options and "rules bloat" attached to it.

You must have started with later 2E with the Players Option books and so on. Early 2E was pretty straight forward; basically a cleaned up 1E with some fine tuning. I like 5E but going back to 2E is tempting (or in modern parlance more like back to 1.5E).

And D@mn it. You people (in this thread, not you specifically DM Howard) and your analogies are making me hungry. I'm grading papers at 11:00 on a Friday night (which says volumes about my life right now) and all you can talk about is bakeries and restaurants. I'm a mile from a decent bakery... and it's closed! *sigh* Time to raid the fridge :)

And get back to grading... if I plan on having any weekend.

*edit* For additional commentary and food thoughts...
 
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It’s certainly not true of all players who want a lot of mechanical options, but some players want a lot of options because they want a lot of combinations, and they want a lot of combinations because they think they can “win the game” with them. They want those options to be in official published products because they don’t want to ask the GM’s permission to use them, or at least want to have some presumption of inclusion on their side.

You design a game with a lot of options and combinations, you won’t only get those guys...but you will get more than your share of those guys.
 

Stacie GmrGrl

Adventurer
Bolding mine. In that bold is the basic problem.

Players have goals. Designers have goals. Mechanical advantages do not - in the same way that a hammer does not have a *goal* of hammering nails. Chunks of steel on sticks do not have will or desire, and have no goals. The hammer can be used to tear down drywall, if that is my goal, no matter that the designer of the hammer had a goal of making a thing to hammer nails.

The designer cannot set the player's goals. The designer can only choose designs that support particular goals more, or support them less.

Having lots of strong mechanical choices supports power gaming, whether you want it to or not. All players have to do is take on the power, and not role play the matching narrative identity - it is the old "role playing restrictions are not a reliable way to balance mechanical strength" issues of Paladins in 3e. And, having supported power gaming, then you are back in the 3e/4e power-curve-breaking mode, because having supported it, it becomes a major way to get rewards as a player.

I like this. I think Mearls is thinking more in favor of how can D&D be better for the DM with 5e than the more Player facing 3e and 4e because both 3e and 4e do provide a lot more mechanical emphasis and options for Players, which probably did make those games more difficult to DM for.

At least on the surface it seems that way. But Mearls is making a lot of personal biases creep in and putting his own beliefs into what D&D is supposed to be, and its definitely in favor of making the game appear to be more narrative focused by how the game presents information, the game's mechanisms, and the whole paradigm of De_emphasizing "Rules" in favor of "Rulings" for different DMs to manage the game as they want.

All this is why I personally dislike 5e. As a Player I don't like how so many of my decisions are allowed by the DMs personal perspective on their Rulings and because I don't have Rules to fall back on, this leads me to feel quite often that my personal Narrative Identity only matters if the DM chooses to allow it.

Plus, 5e has no game mechanisms to really support Narrative Identity. The way its written it presents a very good illusion of it, but if you read carefully, most of the actual rules are phrased like "When you do an Action you MAY DO... (Insert possible action)."

There are no concrete rules in 5e for Players to fall back on. 5e provides no Player Agency, as the game is entirely based on how the DM decides to make their Rulings.

As an autistic person, I love this as a DM and I hate it as a Player. All of this is why I love 4e a lot more as a Player. Because in 4e, I can look at my character sheet, see my abilities, and I don't need to ask the DM if I can do something because my abilities gave Me as Player the ability to make real mechanical decisions and See the Results.

This in turn would cause a 4e DM to have to be more adaptable, and be able to make decisions based on what the Players chose to do.

And yet 4e did provide the DMs full ability to make rulings on everything else not codified by all the rules, just see page 42 in the DMG1. That one page provided a sure fire system to enable DM to come up with a great way of handling more Narrative Agency in the more Narrative focused scenes.

The problem was that so many people only saw the presentation of the rules that they never really delved further into the actual design mechanisms of the game. And this makes many of Mearls' suppositions of 4e incorrect.

As designed, if you really read the 4e DMG books, they provide the DM an incredible amount of flexibility and narrative tools to adapt and create many narrative opportunities. Way more than 5e's design, which is pretty wishy washy and up do the whims of the DMs own personal biases that can often take away from the Players actual agency to make real narrative decisions. The fact that the 5e DMG can talk about Inspiration for many paragraphs and yet does not provide a real single mechanical system for handing Inspiration out is proof of this.

But I am a player who see's rules as narrative support and provides players with more agency and 5e's approach as taking away the players agency to make any kind of real decision making since every action the players can do begins by asking the DM if they can do it.
 


Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Dude, how many different D&D characters do you play in a year? Don't include one-shots at cons, because those don't really give you a full experience of playing a character. How many campaign characters do you play in a year?

I don't often play, to be honest -- I'm a lifelong DM, as I enjoy that process more. Not sure why!
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Sure, and I’ve never suggested that you need different mechanical options to play characters differently. That doesn’t mean the game wouldn’t be improved by having them, though. We don’t need any rules at all, but most folks seem to like having at least some.
I tend to disagree that the game would in fact be improved by having lots of extra mechanical character options. 1e has relatively few. 3e has boatloads. I've played quite a bit of both, and found that all the character mechanics in 3e far too often tended to do nothing but get in the way of trying to follow the story and stay in character.

Only if they decided to play a character that wouldn’t take the tactically advantageous option. Which is a valid choice, but is not the only valid choice.
My question is why should it ever be a choice at all? I posit it's probably better for the game if playing one's character true to itself leads to neither mechanical advantage or disadvantage, and that the simplest way to achieve this is to cut down on the mechanics.

Why on earth would you want to make character decisions arise less frequently in D&D? That’s the whole point of the game, imagining yourself as a character and making decisions as you think that character would. You know, roleplaying.
I was referring to the sort of decisions mentioned above, where a player has to first decide inthe metagame between character and advantage.

The act of deciding between the tactically advantageous action and the action that is most consistent with your character’s motivations is itself roleplaying, and to assume that the tactically advantageous option is somehow a less authentic roleplaying choice assumes that characters’ motivations cannot change over time.
Half the time the character in the fiction wouldn't know about the tactically advantageous choice anyway, even though the metagame has informed the player.

Realistically it would be pretty rare for someone to stop and ask himself this question, particularly in the heat of battle.

Except in the 3 Editions where you’ve had racial Feat options and the one where some races were expressed or enhanced through classes and paragon paths?
Fair enough - in 0e race and class were the same for non-Humans, so there sometimes two choices got concatenated into one. But a Dwarf is a Dwarf in all other editions and thus comes with a few racial benefits for being a Dwarf, under which I lob optional feats as well.

Except the edition where you got to choose a class, a sub-class, a paragon path, and an epic destiny, each of which had further sub-options in the form of powers?
As far as I'm concerned base class + subclass = class. The idea of paragon path and epic destiny implies far too much planning ahead for my liking - I almost never assume my character is going to live much beyond the next combat, and (don't) plan accordingly.

Um, for 10 years, I had considerably more choice of Feats and skills customization that I do in 5e,
For 10 years? Try over 15 years. But not always.

Which leads me to ask: when did you get in to the game? Were you around for the 0e-1e-2e era?

and my point is, those player-facing options didn’t need to go away to satisfy the design goal of making the DM-Facing options more flexible. 3e and 4e messed up by trying to DM-proof the rules, I absolutely agree. But 5e didn’t have to take away the rich character customization those edititions offered to fix that problem. I find 5e an improvement over 3e and 4e because of the changes to the DM-facing rules, but I think a game with 5e’s philosophy towards DM-Facing rules and a 4e-like wealth of player-Facing options would be better than either.
Problem is, they also needed to player-proof the system so that things like optimization forums and ridiculous game-breaking "builds" could become relics of the past.

And could the 5e DM side actually coexist with the 4e player side in the same game? I'm fairly sure it'd have a hard time with the 3e player-side.

Charla- “Good for you, I can do lots of fancy maneuvers and I’m like no other Fighter you ever knew” -quin

Lan-"while you're busy waving your sword around doing those fancy maneuvers I'll actually stick mine into the opponent a few times - xp for me!"-efan
 

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