Mearls On D&D's Design Premises/Goals

First of all, thanks Morrus for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes. That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to...

First of all, thanks [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes.

That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to fans of the other, but those differences do matter. There are ways in which I like the prescriptive elements of 3.x era games (I like set skill difficulty lists, for example) but I tend to run by the seat of my pants and the effects of my beer, so a fast and loose and forgiving version like 5E really enables me running a game the way I like to.
 

pemerton

Legend
removing *ALL* mechanical advantages means that all characters are mechanically identical in all ways, and no actions (including roleplay choices) on the part of the PCs impact resolution of events, which is probably not what we want in RPGs
This doesn't seem right.

A few weeks ago I GMed a session of Cthulhu Dark. Each PC had two things written on their sheet: a name and an occupation. There was also a sanity die in front of each player (it starts at 1; 6 is bad news).

The basic mechanics are build a pool and roll, taking the highest - if the action is within the scope of your occuption, you get a die for that; if it's something within human capabilities, yout get a die for that; and if you're willing to risk your sanity to succeed, you can include your sanity die.

The actions chosen by the players impacted the resolution of events. One player played a reporter, one a secretary in a law firm and one a longshoreman, but even had they all been playing longshoremen the actions that they chose would have impacted the resolution of events.

Options are nice, but they quickly become masterbatory. Content for the sake of content. More choices for the sake of choices, while existing content remains unplayed.
I don't agree with this. Look at our Cthulhu Dark game - a reporter, a secretary in a law firm, and a longshoreman. It could hae easily been a novelist, an accountant and a nurse. Or a diplomat, a playboy and a retired colonel (that's part of the party in my Classic Traveller game). Or anything else the players came up with when asked "What occupation do you want to be?"

In descriptor-based games like Cthulhu Dark or HeroWars/Quest or Maelstrom Storytelling you don't need "content" to make all these things possible, because people can come up with their own descriptors.

But D&D (and Classic Traveller, and most RPGs, especially the more trad ones) are not descriptor based. And so until the content is published, there will be ideas that players can come up with that are not realised in the fiction. In the case of a list-based game like D&D (and Classic Traveller uses lists for its PC-gen too), that means publish more stuff to put on the list.

(There's also the mechanical side of it, but you don't need to get to that to explain the long lists of published stuff - why did 2nd ed D&D produce so many "kits"?)

5e, very deliberately I would argue, unclogs the time and energy previous editions devoted to the character choice analysis paralysis in favor of allowing players to spend that time and energy making meaningful character choices from a more narrativist or story-based context.

<snip>

it's much easier to devote headspace to building a narrative around a character when one isn't also worried about so-called "trap" options or pouring over online guides for hours to find just that right feat.
This is where the 5e design, and the way it is sometimes described, leaves me puzzled. If I want to play a "narrative" or "story-based" game, with a character that expresses that, why am I playing a game based around classes, level and feats?

If the answer is because I want the fiction to impact the mechanics in distinctive and intricate ways then there is a clear logic that pushes towards something like the combat side of 4e PC build.

But otherwise the lgoic is something like the non-combat side of 4e PC build, which is pretty similar to something like Prince Valiant - choose a few key abilities from a short list of genre-appropriate descriptors, and have a robust resolution mechanic (skill challenges in the 4e case) for working out what happens when they're brought to bear.

(I also don't really get how "building narrative around a character" fits with the seemingly dominant role of APs in 5e play, but that's a different story.)

3e and 4e really, REALLY tried to universalize the gaming experience.
I can't comment on 3E, but that's so far from my 4e experience I find it hard to reconcile with it.

Do we fight mind flayers at 10th level or 20th level? The former if we're playing the Neverwinter supplement, which restatted a whole lot of paragon-tier creatures down to heroic-tier levels to facilitate a campaign experience that was shorter in mechanical and temporal duration but complete in story terms. The latter in my own campaign. (And I could say the same about giants, fey, etc - and I'm sure I'm not the only GM who noticed how easy restatting a 4e creature for a different level is.)

What's the DC to persuade the duke to talk to us? To seal the Abyss so it stops sucking elemental matter into its maw? To woo the heart of a princess? The 4e books don't even pretend to answer this, and leave nearly all the fiction of non-combat resolution to be worked out at the table, guided by the description of what sort of stuff is default at each tier, and with a universal resolution structure modelled on scene-based resolution pioneered in mid-to-late 90s games like Maelstrom Storytelling.

Yes, 4e has overly detailed rules for cover (but not for hiding! - it's rules there seem far less hard to use than the 5e ones) - but if someone played 4years of 4e and had as their main take-away "Whoa, too much detail in the cover and concealment rules", then I feel sorry for their sucky RPG experience!

5e allows characters to do things without having explicit buttons for them. If you have never played an RPG like that before, then it is likely that you don't even see the possibilities.
This is a statement I would associate with 4e non-combat resolution, and also with some aspects of 4e combat (the p 42 driven ones).

For me, the difference with 5e non-combat resolution is that it has no framework to it that establishes finality of resolution, and so unless something is done at the table to compensate for this the upshot of non-combat action resolution is always ultimately a matter of GM decision-making. (Classic Traveller has the same problem in a few areas, especially on-world exploration. But I'm more forgiving of a game that was designed 40 years ago.)
 

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KenNYC

Explorer
In terms of players, we focus much more on narrative and identity, rather than specific, mechanical advantages. Who you are is more important than what you do,


This is a very rose colored way he has at looking at his own design, since the rules he has written is almost the opposite of what he claims his goals are.

Just for example, take the assassin. In 1e it was a very themey character class requiring a lot of creativity from the DM where the player had to join a guild and eventually couldn't rise in level unless he killed an assassin of higher level. There was a procedure for the assassin to decide who he was going to kill, how he was going to kill them, and whether it was going to be a fast kill, slow death, instant poison or poison over many doses. All the player had to do was explain clearly how he was going to get into a position to attempt the murder. Theoretically the DM would then come back with an adventure where this might play out. There was a separate XP chart for the assassin where the DM would assign XP for murders modified by your level vs the level of the victim. If you wanted high XP you had to do a tough kill. It was hard to play, hard to DM and yet it is almost strictly social interaction.

What is the assassin now? If you hit via attack X do Y dice of damage. The End. Basically, the entire class has been thrown out replaced by "how can I roll more dice? I know, I will choose assassin"

And that seems the way it is for so many of the classes. "what can get me better action economy" "this class crits on an 18" and so on. That is what this guy has come up with as he pretends he hasn't.
 

Tallifer

Hero
I actually found 4E to be the clearest and most comfortable Edition for me, and I always run my game on the fly. However, 4E had the Character Builder, so I could always assume that my players's characters were 1) legal and 2) fully functioning. Since WotC axed the Character Builder, I switched to 5E, because its comparative simplicity means I can quickly check up on any weirdness. That, and because I can get far more players willing to play 5E.
 

It's pretty clear that people who like the mechanical aspect are not the people WOTC is interested in marketing to, whatever your opinions on that are.

We're not REALLY welcome, as far as they're concerned.
 

I disagree.

I would like to support my store, so if it comes down to going for a Sms Guild product or buying yet another adventure from WOTC in-store then it will be the WOTC adventure.

Ask your LFGS if they would order a book for you if it is not in stock. I’ve done this with a few different stores and it is always greeted with an eager “of course we can do that for you!” I’m willing to wait in order to help them out in a small way. I’ve got plenty of stuff that I haven’t fully read to fill up my time while I anticipate their call that my order is in. :)
 

Oofta

Legend
It's pretty clear that people who like the mechanical aspect are not the people WOTC is interested in marketing to, whatever your opinions on that are.

We're not REALLY welcome, as far as they're concerned.

Or it could just be that no game is for every person. Not to pick on you ... but there have been a ton of posts here about how 5E should be more like game ____.

If a different game works better for you, play that game. It's kind of like saying that you want a vehicle that light and nimble, accelerates quickly, has great handling and looks sporty but then complaining that it can't handle off-road terrain while still being reasonably affordable.

There are always going to be compromises of design for any product. D&D has a niche of a niche of the entertainment universe that seems to be doing quite well for the genre. Why would they make significant investment to cater to the 5-10% of their potential market (totally guessing at the numbers of course) that want a style of game that already exists elsewhere?
 

Or it could just be that no game is for every person. Not to pick on you ... but there have been a ton of posts here about how 5E should be more like game ____.

If a different game works better for you, play that game. It's kind of like saying that you want a vehicle that light and nimble, accelerates quickly, has great handling and looks sporty but then complaining that it can't handle off-road terrain while still being reasonably affordable.

There are always going to be compromises of design for any product. D&D has a niche of a niche of the entertainment universe that seems to be doing quite well for the genre. Why would they make significant investment to cater to the 5-10% of their potential market (totally guessing at the numbers of course) that want a style of game that already exists elsewhere?
Thanks for confirming my point, by immediately telling me to go elsewhere.
 

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
I think after reading some of this a point should be made.

If you don't like 5e because rules don't support your character narrative and you have to rely on the DM allowing things; I hear you.

However, regardless of whether or not the rules support a narrative, (as 3e or 4e would) it's still up to the DM to allow the rules to exist as written or be interpreted the way the player intends.

The only difference in the game system is options. If that's what you want, that's great but I'd not hide behind the "DM has too much power" argument because he or she has always had it. If you're having fun it's because the DM and the entire group is enabling you to some extent. You're not doing it because of the rules or on your own.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
If a different game works better for you, play that game. It's kind of like saying that you want a vehicle that light and nimble, accelerates quickly, has great handling and looks sporty but then complaining that it can't handle off-road terrain while still being reasonably affordable.
Not to pick on you, because I do see this idea crop up quite a bit, but I think that ignores something pretty important. D&D, and especially D&D 5e, is the biggest game out there. By far. If I complain about Facebook editing my news feed, that doesn't mean the proper advice is to move to Myspace. "I like 90% of what 5e does, and I don't want to fall out of the 5e ecosystem, but I'd be happier if they moved in a somewhat different direction" doesn't seem to be criticism that warrants abandoning the game.
 


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